Man City v Arsenal
- Thread starter Kes
- Start date
This is what I mean, those two incidents are not the same! And yet people argue it shows inconsistency, like saying stairs that don't move are inconsistent from escalators
Teaching and refereeing are not the same, much like two incidents in football are never the same
FirsFox40
RefChat Addict
Always enjoy these threads as a supporter of a (poor) L1 team who watches no PL football apart from clips posted on here. Would love a poll option on some threads. Yellow, Red, Play On (Next!) style.
Related: I’m waiting for my observation report from Saturday. Two incidents.
First one about 15 minutes in, 0-0, home player through down the right, offside called, whistle, he takes a touch and then hits it towards goal (no dissent). Quick word in ear, think you heard me, benefit of the doubt, I sympathise when you’re through etc.
Second one, 85th minute. Away team now two goals up. Free kick called against an away forward down near the corner flag, and he kicks the ball off the pitch, making the (game-chasing) keeper run an extra 15 yards to fetch. Yellow. Because of the context.
Inconsistent? Maybe. But the incidents weren’t the same.
Related: I’m waiting for my observation report from Saturday. Two incidents.
First one about 15 minutes in, 0-0, home player through down the right, offside called, whistle, he takes a touch and then hits it towards goal (no dissent). Quick word in ear, think you heard me, benefit of the doubt, I sympathise when you’re through etc.
Second one, 85th minute. Away team now two goals up. Free kick called against an away forward down near the corner flag, and he kicks the ball off the pitch, making the (game-chasing) keeper run an extra 15 yards to fetch. Yellow. Because of the context.
Inconsistent? Maybe. But the incidents weren’t the same.
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I think (or hope) you knew this was intended to mean that no 2 incidents are exactly like for like in circumstance and we take in to account many many factors before deciding on how to act.
The point of having a forum is to discuss how law is applied. If law was to be applied in a black and white manor then there would equally be no point having a forum.
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Exactly that. Whilst I accept that Mitoma should probably have been cautioned, his actions didn't really delay an Arsenal restart as there was no Arsenal player there to take a quick throw. Whereas there can be no argument at all that Rice's actions didn't delay the restart, Veltman kicked where the ball should have been, it is comparing apples with oranges. I've been trying to explain to mates all week that kicking the ball away isn't necessarily an offence, delaying the restart is, but that shouldn't need to be explained on a refereeing forum
On this topic alone we've had claims that the law is now that the keeper can hold the ball for 8 seconds, that only the captains can talk to the referee, amongst other out there comments. I think people need to restrict themselves to reading the LoTG rather than the general Internet as qualified referees should not be getting these things wrong.
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
As I've said before in the thread, PGMOL officials have clearly been told that not ALL kicking the ball away is DTR and therefore a yellow card. It needs to meet certain criteria .. Clear, Deliberate, Impactful. As an alternative example, in the multi ball system, if a player kicks one ball away but his opponent immediately picks up a nearby ball off a cone and takes the throw in then no impact --> no caution. As such, a strong case can be made that Michael Oliver implemented exactly what he and the other officials have been asked to do. Obviously, interpretation of what meets these three criteria will likely vary (slightly) from referee to referee - they are human beings at the end of the day! But critical to understand the nuances of the situation rather than dumbing down to all kicking the ball away should be clamped down on.
deusex
RefChat Addict
The FA and FIFA themselves show videoclips of incidents to assist in training of referees at all levels.
Most things that happen on a football pitch CAN be put into a category with things that happened in other games.
If they couldn't it would be impossible to write a book of laws as it would be infinite pages long.
Well I'm just back from a weekend away and I can certainly see things that have toes well and truly poking over the line, as well as deleted posts that have stepped completely over it. I refer you to my second paragraph in post #108.
Doku YC (lack of), would have put MO in a ridiculous position, as he (MO) was clearly telling the Arsenal players the kick needed to be taken from a position further back. As previous posts have stated the ball movement was minimal in relation to the correct placement for the kick.
Trossard YC completely different, clearly had time to hear the whistle and react to it, or not. Chose not to and kicked the ball hard and into a position 30 yards or so away ( a position to which he was quite likely still the closest Arsenal player to ball).
This reasoning gives my support to both decisions, but I agree that other opinions posted have justification.
Policing of the positioning of free kicks was in my opinion poor throughout. Free kick immediately before first Arsenal goal and the position of an indirect free kick later in the game, when the AR was clearly seen with his flag raised whilst the kick was taken at least 10 to 15 yards further up the pitch, are examples.
Arsenal free kick leading to their first goal, yes Walker should have been back and in position quicker than he was. He also is entitled to be allowed time to reset after being called to the referee. (We have all heard said many times "Let him get back ref").
Main point of my post is that we all need to show empathy and awareness when officiating. In my opinion, the issue of awareness or lack of it resulted in the remonstrations following the Arsenal goal and created many of the problems that the Officials faced later in the game. It has certainly generated much discussion here.
(All who have gone through observations will relate to 'awareness of match changing situations)
Trossard YC completely different, clearly had time to hear the whistle and react to it, or not. Chose not to and kicked the ball hard and into a position 30 yards or so away ( a position to which he was quite likely still the closest Arsenal player to ball).
This reasoning gives my support to both decisions, but I agree that other opinions posted have justification.
Policing of the positioning of free kicks was in my opinion poor throughout. Free kick immediately before first Arsenal goal and the position of an indirect free kick later in the game, when the AR was clearly seen with his flag raised whilst the kick was taken at least 10 to 15 yards further up the pitch, are examples.
Arsenal free kick leading to their first goal, yes Walker should have been back and in position quicker than he was. He also is entitled to be allowed time to reset after being called to the referee. (We have all heard said many times "Let him get back ref").
Main point of my post is that we all need to show empathy and awareness when officiating. In my opinion, the issue of awareness or lack of it resulted in the remonstrations following the Arsenal goal and created many of the problems that the Officials faced later in the game. It has certainly generated much discussion here.
(All who have gone through observations will relate to 'awareness of match changing situations)
one
RefChat Addict
So that we can discuss why when one incident is dealt with one way, a similar incident with a different context doesn't have to be dealt with the same way.
That is what is being reported, however, he was on the goal line which I'm pretty certain isn't allowed. Substitutes have to remain along the touchline when warming up (competition rules).
So he wouldn't have been sanctioned if he'd shouted from the touchline? If the feigning is wrong, why does only the middle man in the deal get sanctioned?
Imagine that a player tells a goalkeeper to go down pretending to be injured, the goalkeeper meanwhile has an actual injury and we caution him for doing so?
We aren't and never will be able to sanction people for saying they have an injury that needs assessing, as we can not prove they're not telling the truth.
In instructing the goalkeeper to go down, the sub has clearly shown a lack of respect for the game which is a cautionable offence.
With all of the above said, as James pointed out, it may purely have been for the substitute being in the wrong place or a combination of going to the wrong place and then showing a lack of respect for the game.