Ref4Me

Be aware!

markref

Well-Known Member
Level 5 Referee
Depends entirely on who is running the hearing and how sensible they are. I was involved in a charge where I gave advice to the referee which he acted on, that was later deemed to be incorrect in law (it wasn't, but hey ho). The referee told the FA that I had told him what happened and he had chosen the sanction based on that advice, therefore the fault lied with him. He was suspended for 3 weeks, I was sent what amounted to a written warning, and the other AR faced no action.

Of course if the referee denies he told AR2 not to write down cautions AR2 has the option of taking it on the chin or appealing it, hoping AR1 backs him up. Thankfully such referees are few and far between, but sadly they do exist.
I had a game with one of those referees when I was a level 4. A local step 3 ground had the away bench at half way and the home one next to the corner flag at left back, which was OK as most referees run with the Assistant on that end. However, this referee always ran the opposite diagonal so I was at the far end of the pitch as senior. His instructions were "you manage the away bench. Leave the home bench to me because that's my end. I'll call you down if I need you to witness something but otherwise don't get involved"
In the game he had a few issues with the home team and their bench kicked off. He totally ignored them. I tried to calm them down by shouting when he wasn't nearby but most of the time he was standing near them so I left it to him.

After the game the assessor came in and gave the referee praise for his handling of the game, before turning to me and asking why I hadn't dealt with the home bench. I expected the referee to say that he'd told me not to get involved, but he basically threw me under the bus. He didn't say anything at first, and eventually said that "well, I suppose I did say it would be hard to deal with them from so far away so I'd handle them if I could!" which made him look better and made me look weak, even though there was obviously nothing I could have realistically done to handle a bench about 50 yards away from me when I was on half way. I took it on the chin because I wasn't sure I'd gain anything by making a fuss, and I wasn't sure that the other AR would back me. If he didn't then I'd drop myself in it and at the time I had been looking good for promotion so didn't want to cause trouble by making myself look difficult. As it was my mark really suffered because the assessor said I hadn't done my job and I didn't get it that year anyway, while the referee did get promoted.
 
The Referee Store

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
I had a game with one of those referees when I was a level 4. A local step 3 ground had the away bench at half way and the home one next to the corner flag at left back, which was OK as most referees run with the Assistant on that end. However, this referee always ran the opposite diagonal so I was at the far end of the pitch as senior. His instructions were "you manage the away bench. Leave the home bench to me because that's my end. I'll call you down if I need you to witness something but otherwise don't get involved"
In the game he had a few issues with the home team and their bench kicked off. He totally ignored them. I tried to calm them down by shouting when he wasn't nearby but most of the time he was standing near them so I left it to him.

After the game the assessor came in and gave the referee praise for his handling of the game, before turning to me and asking why I hadn't dealt with the home bench. I expected the referee to say that he'd told me not to get involved, but he basically threw me under the bus. He didn't say anything at first, and eventually said that "well, I suppose I did say it would be hard to deal with them from so far away so I'd handle them if I could!" which made him look better and made me look weak, even though there was obviously nothing I could have realistically done to handle a bench about 50 yards away from me when I was on half way. I took it on the chin because I wasn't sure I'd gain anything by making a fuss, and I wasn't sure that the other AR would back me. If he didn't then I'd drop myself in it and at the time I had been looking good for promotion so didn't want to cause trouble by making myself look difficult. As it was my mark really suffered because the assessor said I hadn't done my job and I didn't get it that year anyway, while the referee did get promoted.
The question is, what would you do if you have that referee again?
And being assessed.
 

markref

Well-Known Member
Level 5 Referee
The question is, what would you do if you have that referee again?
And being assessed.
It's different these days, because you are now told the observer is there and he listens to the pre-match. In those days the first we knew was when he walked in after the game, unless you saw him in the stand and recognised him. I did have him again but I was always careful to cover myself after that.

Two of my mates ran lines on an FA cup game where there was an extra sub made at half time, and neither of them knew anything about it.
They were in the dressing room and the home coach asked the referee to make a sub while he was outside. He agreed but didn't tell my mates and it was not carried out correctly in Law - at half way using the boards before the half started - so neither of my mates knew. The sub just came out with the other players and the half started normally. The home team then made the full set of substitutions (correctly in Law) in addition to the one at half time because the coach hadn't mentioned it to anyone else on the team either. After the game the away side complained about the number of subs and neither AR knew what they were talking about.
They had to go to the FA for a hearing, where the referee blamed them for the mix up, but I believe the home team were asked what happened and gave details of the conversation with the Referee so they were both given a warning and the referee was suspended.
 

Anubis

RefChat Addict
I had a game with one of those referees when I was a level 4. A local step 3 ground had the away bench at half way and the home one next to the corner flag at left back, which was OK as most referees run with the Assistant on that end. However, this referee always ran the opposite diagonal so I was at the far end of the pitch as senior. His instructions were "you manage the away bench. Leave the home bench to me because that's my end. I'll call you down if I need you to witness something but otherwise don't get involved"
In the game he had a few issues with the home team and their bench kicked off. He totally ignored them. I tried to calm them down by shouting when he wasn't nearby but most of the time he was standing near them so I left it to him.

After the game the assessor came in and gave the referee praise for his handling of the game, before turning to me and asking why I hadn't dealt with the home bench. I expected the referee to say that he'd told me not to get involved, but he basically threw me under the bus. He didn't say anything at first, and eventually said that "well, I suppose I did say it would be hard to deal with them from so far away so I'd handle them if I could!" which made him look better and made me look weak, even though there was obviously nothing I could have realistically done to handle a bench about 50 yards away from me when I was on half way. I took it on the chin because I wasn't sure I'd gain anything by making a fuss, and I wasn't sure that the other AR would back me. If he didn't then I'd drop myself in it and at the time I had been looking good for promotion so didn't want to cause trouble by making myself look difficult. As it was my mark really suffered because the assessor said I hadn't done my job and I didn't get it that year anyway, while the referee did get promoted.


moral of the story? Look after number 1
 

markref

Well-Known Member
Level 5 Referee
It was a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't, because if I'd gone after him and the other AR hadn't backed me - he had his own mark to protect as well - then I've hung myself out to dry. Because we didn't know the assessor was there I couldn't take AR2 to one side and see what he thought to know how to handle it.
Also, the assessor should be able to see that it's totally stupid to expect an AR to handle a bench when he's at least 50 yards away while the referee is next to them, so should not be asking "why didn't you deal with them?" but instead "what were the instructions on how to deal with them?" before deciding how to proceed.
The referee blatantly lied, and I try to see the best in people and assume they will be honest until I know otherwise. Now I'd handle it differently.

A mate on the Premier League was told "all decisions in the PA are mine. Don't give anything in there!" so he didn't. There was a blatant foul, which everyone saw except the Referee. After the game the assessor came in and asked him "why didn't you flag for the penalty?" My mate said "because he told me not to!" at which the assessor moved on to the referee to ask why he'd said that.
As you say, look after number one!
 

GraemeS

RefChat Addict
Level 5 Referee
It was a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't, because if I'd gone after him and the other AR hadn't backed me - he had his own mark to protect as well - then I've hung myself out to dry. Because we didn't know the assessor was there I couldn't take AR2 to one side and see what he thought to know how to handle it.
Also, the assessor should be able to see that it's totally stupid to expect an AR to handle a bench when he's at least 50 yards away while the referee is next to them, so should not be asking "why didn't you deal with them?" but instead "what were the instructions on how to deal with them?" before deciding how to proceed.
The referee blatantly lied, and I try to see the best in people and assume they will be honest until I know otherwise. Now I'd handle it differently.

A mate on the Premier League was told "all decisions in the PA are mine. Don't give anything in there!" so he didn't. There was a blatant foul, which everyone saw except the Referee. After the game the assessor came in and asked him "why didn't you flag for the penalty?" My mate said "because he told me not to!" at which the assessor moved on to the referee to ask why he'd said that.
As you say, look after number one!
And as you rightly point out, "look after number one" means do what the referee told you, do it well and be prepared to stand behind the fact that's what you've been told.

Anubis is still trying to use this an example for how you should ignore the referees instructions if you think you know better - my take away from it is that the only mistake you made was not being confident enough to stand behind the instructions you were given. And as you rightly point out, 1) the observer will be at the pre-match briefing nowadays and 2) the lie the referee told was a daft instruction to give anyway and a decent observer should have dug deeper.
 

Anubis

RefChat Addict
It was a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't, because if I'd gone after him and the other AR hadn't backed me - he had his own mark to protect as well - then I've hung myself out to dry. Because we didn't know the assessor was there I couldn't take AR2 to one side and see what he thought to know how to handle it.
Also, the assessor should be able to see that it's totally stupid to expect an AR to handle a bench when he's at least 50 yards away while the referee is next to them, so should not be asking "why didn't you deal with them?" but instead "what were the instructions on how to deal with them?" before deciding how to proceed.
The referee blatantly lied, and I try to see the best in people and assume they will be honest until I know otherwise. Now I'd handle it differently.

A mate on the Premier League was told "all decisions in the PA are mine. Don't give


anything in there!" so he didn't. There was a blatant foul, which everyone saw except the Referee. After the game the assessor came in and asked him "why didn't you flag for the penalty?" My mate said "because he told me not to!" at which the assessor moved on to the referee to ask why he'd said that.
As you say, look after number one!

the team ethis is great on paper, and if we can put it to practise, great.

there is not enough text space on the web for half the stories I could type, that plus its difficult to keep some tales annon
 

Anubis

RefChat Addict
And as you rightly point out, "look after number one" means do what the referee told you, do it well and be prepared to stand behind the fact that's what you've been told.

Anubis is still trying to use this an example for how you should ignore the referees instructions if you think you know better - my take away from it is that the only mistake you made was not being confident enough to stand behind the instructions you were given. And as you rightly point out, 1) the observer will be at the pre-match briefing nowadays and 2) the lie the referee told was a daft instruction to give anyway and a decent observer should have dug deeper.

Another day, another personal dig. Nearly every post you type mentions me!

am I every image behind your advent calendar too?
 

Anubis

RefChat Addict
I'd really love it if you stopped getting things wrong, then I'd stop feeling obliged to correct you. But like the team that keeps fouling and then shouts "2 teams here ref", I'm only responding to what you're doing.
And I would love to post on here free from your bullying

so as you wont ignore me, I will do you xxxx The constant squabble is clearly your obsession and am no longer playing


oh, as for wrong, happy to compare top league career stats and medals anytime x
 

Ross

Forum VAR
Staff member
Level 6 Referee
FA Referee
Right chaps, getting a little bit tired of your constant squabbling on here, may I suggest if you wish to continue it you do it elsewhere. Enough is enough, next post I see with more of this crap and you’ll be taking a holiday from here. Simple really!
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
Serious question though. Here in Aus assessors don't normally listen to referee instruction but we know if we have assessors. As an AR, if a ref has thrown you under the bus, how do you deal with them second time round?
 

socal lurker

RefChat Addict
Serious question though. Here in Aus assessors don't normally listen to referee instruction but we know if we have assessors. As an AR, if a ref has thrown you under the bus, how do you deal with them second time round?
Decline the assignment.

Seriously, I think it is a flaw in the system for an assessor not to hear the pregame instructions. It's been the norm in the assessments I've had.
 

markref

Well-Known Member
Level 5 Referee
Here in England it's standard for the Assessor (observer) to hear the pre-match now, but this was in the early noughties and it wasn't then.
I had a game where the assessor stayed in the bar the whole game, and the pitch had a dog track round it with advertising hoardings all the way round on both sides, so if anything happened on the touchline right in front of him then he was twenty yards away looking through a dirty window with a wire mesh in front of it so the ball didn't break the glass (has anyone seen "My Cousin Vinny" This reminds me of when Joe Pesci interviews the old lady!) The first I knew he was there was when I got the report back, which slated me for incidents which hadn't happened!
Now we have to contact the referee a couple of days before and agree when he wants to do the pre-match so we can hear it.

I did have the same referee again several times, and nothing like that came up again, but if it had I would have made a point of saying that I'd been told not to go there because it was on the Referee's diagonal - that should have been obvious though. However that would have probably been it for me, because he was a lot more senior than I was so I've a feeling they would have believed him rather than me, and if he denied it then I'm either backing down or calling him a liar, neither of which would go down well.
 

Ben448844

RefChat Addict
Level 5 Referee
It seems to be much more beneficial for the observer to witness the pre match. Otherwise he cannot observe the officials for the entirety, which the pre match is a key part of.

As for the ref that got suspended for lying. If you lie or throw someone else under the bus to save yourself you deserve everything you get. Just be straight about everything and honest. I'm probably over honest about everything which is probably to my detriment but it doesn't concern me. I'm not lying for anyone and I'm not using anyone else to get me put of any situations. My motto as a player was give 100% and then you can look at your manager whether you get criticism or praise (and look at yourself of course) and say that I did my best and everything else us circumstantial. Same with refereeing. Give 100% for you and your team. Lose marks but never lose face. Granted I'm not 20 and looking for a career in football but its a way of working and I'll never move away from it.

I've had refs try to direct me in directions that I know will look bad on me and get them out of the brown stuff. I will ask them straight if they are trying to do that and if not what are they trying to achieve. That stops any nonsense in its tracks. They may not like me at that precise moment but they will have to respect my position.
 

ladbroke8745

RefChat Addict
Level 6 Referee
Decent Isthmian U18s game last night. Nothing remotely confrontational or especially troublesome.

44th minute, far side from me (as Junior AR), about 20 yards in the 'far' half, player halts an attack by grabbing attacker, not really a 'promising attack' but no attempt to play the ball whatsoever so a yellow could be sold. Referee calls player over, I'm looking to see if I can see his number in case a yellow is coming.

Suddenly there is a shout from the bench directly opposite me, "He's head butted him ref!" and there's a player on the floor.

None of us 3 saw it, referee made a show of asking both us ARs, explained to the coach that he couldn't act on a shout.

'Offender' immediately subbed (very good move). Turns out it was really only a push.

No one in the 'crowd', about 30 - 40, my side saw a thing, until they heard the shout, then of course, they all had an opinion on it!

Player walked 50 yards over to me, to ask why I hadn't seen it!

Still, a lesson to be learned and I AM a little annoyed I didn't see it, but there really was no indication anything like that was going to happen.

2nd half was absolutely fine - no cards and the decent football resumed.

Football eh?!
Can I just say Paul, that is unlike you, but even the best can miss things because it wasn't expected.
Don't beat yourself up over it.
 

Trip

RefChat Addict
Level 5 Referee
Yeah I'm fully aware of that and why it happens and I'm not making a big deal of it, but if I was suspended that would be it on principle.

I'm with you on this. Even if I make an error in law if I get suspended they can find somebody else to referee.

Referees below level 4 should be suspended only if you really would prefer they didn't referee again. For example, if they are violent, or racist.
 
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