If I make a mistake in law and I'm punished with lesser games for a while etc then no problem, there are consequences to messing up. But to be suspended goes beyond what I'm willing to take for a mistake. If you want to suspend me then fine but theres a consequence to that to and thats finding another ref to do the 60+ games a season I do, I'll be doing something else.
Be aware!
- Thread starter PinnerPaul
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If I make a mistake in law and I'm punished with lesser games for a while etc then no problem, there are consequences to messing up. But to be suspended goes beyond what I'm willing to take for a mistake. If you want to suspend me then fine but theres a consequence to that to and thats finding another ref to do the 60+ games a season I do, I'll be doing something else.
Well all I can say is you'd best not be incorrect in law then. You might get away with it at L5 and below, but if caught at L4 and above and it causes the game to have to be replayed I can 100% guarantee you will have a three week rest.
The reason is at those levels mistakes like that have serious consequences. To use an example, a L4 played extra time in a cup game when there shouldn't have been extra time, the away team that lost protested, the FA upheld their protest and the game had to be replayed. The cost of that, for ground hire, transport, catering, etc, came to almost £1000, and the clubs had to find that. They will rightly say that if their players make a serious mistake they get suspended, so why should match officials who have cost them £500 each through incompetence (and not knowing competition laws is incompetence) get away without sanction. They have an extremely good point, that is why match officials will always get suspended if something they do that is wrong in law causes a game to be replayed.
And to be honest that would be the least of your worries, as you'd be forever known as that referee who made a massive mistake and it would follow you around like baggage.
As I said earlier in the thread, I understand the reasons for it. But to be suspended for a mistake (no matter how stupid like not checking comp rules and playing extra time) wouldn't sit right with me. I'd want nothing more to do with officiating football. That's just me I'm afraid. If suspending referees makes the teams etc feel better then fine. If its the right thing to do then thats fine too. But it would be the end for me
one
RefChat Addict
Comparing the reason for suspension for players to Error in law by a referee is apples and oranges (to put it kindly). If a defender 'makes a mistake' by passing the ball to a opponent striker who scored in the last game of an EPL season causing demotion and loss of hundreds of millions of revenue, what do we give him Jail time?
Suspension for error in law is way too unproportionate. As I have mentioned before and your post suggest, it's to please the clubs. I am ok with loss of match fee and demotion to lower division or younger age games.
Referee suspensions are rare where I am. To give you an ideas, some of the referee suspensions I have been involved in
- Getting suspended as a player, usually suspended for that league only (by far the most common)
- refereeing while intoxicated
- repeated social media policy breach
- referee abuse (as an spectator But still wearing referee uniform from a previous game)
But at L4, there are always other referees who will do the match. At L4, such a mistake would be taken into account in promotion/demotion decisions.
If it happened to you, and you stood down, the league would care less. Another referee would be promoted to replace you. Remember the FA would make the decision, bit you local CFA
Again (and I'm not being disparaging here) I'm fully aware of that. Nobody would care apart from local league secs but that's just how it is.
Anubis
RefChat Addict
Why would a referee go into a cup tie tho and not be aware of how the game is to end? If a referee does not know this driving to the game then there truly is no point turning up.
the bare minimum any league expects is that the referee is aware of the rules
they stand by us on a dodgy offside or a harsh red card, these things are ours to call. On the flip side, say, number of subs, is a solid matter and no excuse for getting that wrong washes.
pointless being super fit, having great managment skills and a fantastic recognition of offside if the referee cannot tell the time.
well documented case here of a ref gunning for the top, storming it, messed up the extra time cup tie thing in Feb, seaaon over. To his credit he recovered and eventually got to his desired status.
but to not be aware of the regulations is like the traffic warden proudly boasting he ticketed 500 cars in one day, only to find them all null and void. A complete waste of everybodys time, players, officials, spectators, sponsors, and of course, money. Maybe instead of a suspension the cost of both the ruined game and the replay could be met by the referee, afterall, they have caused it.
Even a pub level, pay both teams travel, pay pitch etc
I’ll give you both sides to this, as I know exactly where you’re coming from, and to an extent I agree.
Know the rules before you go out seems a given. And I make a point of checking, because…
It’s a mess. FA games, county cups and league cups are a complex combination of different rules.
Some finish on 90 minutes, and go to replay.
Some go to extra time and then a replay (used the be the case on the FA vase)
Some have ET and penalties.
Some go straight to penalties.
These last two irk me considerably. To use my youth league as an example because the amount of protests we get from managers, when I tell them beforehand is unreal.
County cup - straight to penalties; league cup, Extra time then penalties.
This lack of consistency in rules creates many of the issues. And it’s often difficult to find the exact rule in the book because they’re buried.
But with that said I come back to the beginning. Check before you go, and screenshot it as proof!
Extra time is more complex these days, as there are a lot of combinations as opposed to previusly when almost every cup game went to ET and penalties. Doesn't really matter though, you have to check before every cup game and if you can't find the rules check with the league / CFA / FA.
I don't disagree. I wouldn't dream of not checking comp rules before a cup tie. That's basic stuff.
But if you didn't and you messed it up then fine. Demote the ref, drop him/her a league or two, do whatever suits. But suspending somebody is different. It denies them the opportunity to referee and that goes beyond what a punishment should be imo.
I would never give an opinion with the idea that I'm 100% correct and I see all the counter arguments. But I know that if I'm suspended then the whistle is in the bin. Serves no purpose other than to satisfy teams and drags you through the emotional dirt. Its too severe. It kills it for me mentally.
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
and you haven't even mentioned subs, sin bins, team sheets, match reports......
I have had this discussion with colleagues this season, leagues/comps don't help themselves and its not always easy to find an up to date version of the current rules and regs.
Ahead of my county cup appointments this season, I got sent a document of competition rules, which contained a grid for all of the county competitions, including columns for things like match length, ET/pens, rolling subs, sin bins and also fees & mileage. It was a really good resource, I don't recall ever seeing these rules laid out so clearly and straightforwardly.
And then going to in to the first of these matches in the Senior cup, I started getting incredibly worried that I'd read the wrong line. It being the senior cup, the rules were professional-adjacent (no sin bins or rolling subs etc), but then I had my intermediate cup match 3 days later with much more amateur-style rules - so I was aware that I would need to have both sets of rules in my head in very close proximity.
In the end, the senior match was a one-sided drubbing, so no need for sin bins, ET or anything like that, and the intermediate match was called off the following day. So quite straightforward in the end, but even with that really good resource available, it still felt so easy to mess up. I can't imagine having to be in a similar situation without having the rules laid out clearly like that.
And then going to in to the first of these matches in the Senior cup, I started getting incredibly worried that I'd read the wrong line. It being the senior cup, the rules were professional-adjacent (no sin bins or rolling subs etc), but then I had my intermediate cup match 3 days later with much more amateur-style rules - so I was aware that I would need to have both sets of rules in my head in very close proximity.
In the end, the senior match was a one-sided drubbing, so no need for sin bins, ET or anything like that, and the intermediate match was called off the following day. So quite straightforward in the end, but even with that really good resource available, it still felt so easy to mess up. I can't imagine having to be in a similar situation without having the rules laid out clearly like that.
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
3 examples
Isthmian U18s no sin bins, U23s do
Under 18s County Cup different rules to Under 18s Senior County Cup
Did a Women's National Reserve League game and although clubs are listed on Full Time only the cup competition is, not the league.
There are numerous other examples, its not made easy for us.
ChasObserverRefDeveloper
Regular Contributor
The Women's National League and League Cup are on MOAS.
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
The National League is on Full Time as well, but not the reserve league, just their cup.
Plus I'm not on MOAS in any case!
Different leagues use different systems or none at all for availability as well, Isthmian U23s use Pitchside but the 18s don't.
Surely wouldn't be that difficult to have one referee resource for availability and comp rules included in one place.
I think you'd be overreacting by chucking the whistle in the bin. Especially if it's a £70 Valkeen
We shouldn't be getting this stuff wrong, so I'd take a sanction on the chin
They do need to clear the mess up though. The demanding schedules (not to mention Covid) mean that 'two legs', replays and ET will be phased out
ChasObserverRefDeveloper
Regular Contributor
A very good resource to have, but it would need to be localised as competition rules vary among County Cups, for example.
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
Looking at the sheer number of competitions on Full Time its probably a pipe dream, but not beyond the wit of man (or woman) to have at least comp rules in one place for each county?
ChasObserverRefDeveloper
Regular Contributor
Hampshire FA provide a handy chart for Mini soccer and youth football referees on their website (Referees' section)
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
Middlesex do for their own County Cups, but that's it. I do lots of different competitions within Middlesex. Every one has at least Middlesex team competing, so surely County FAs could put all the comp rules their clubs compete in, in one place?