No need to be condescending about it. We're all capable of high standards - that's why I maintain my book correctly and don't rely on AR's to back up my notes...
Be aware!
- Thread starter PinnerPaul
- Start date
Whilst at the risk of getting splinters in my rear end, I agree with both of you. I don't want to see an AR calling a referee over to clarify the number of a cautioned player as that looks terrible. Rather there will be plenty of opportunities for the AR to shout across to the referee at a suitable time to get it clarified. I used to say to my ARs that I would try and spin the player round so they would always see the number of anyone I'm cautioning, but if they weren't sure to ask me the next time I was close to them.
Equally I think it is a bit arrogant to think your list is always correct and you don't need any help from your ARs, that's what Graham Poll thought and look what happened to him. I've certainly written things down wrongly in the notebook, or more commonly I can't read my writing or the rain has damaged what I have written, and without my AR1 having had an accurate record I could have been in trouble.
Didn't he say he was disappointed that his A/R's didn't help him out on this count - Pretty sure in his book he goes as far to blame them without blaming them, by suggesting it was a communication error, and he wrote it on the wrong side of the notes? I'd have to re-read it.
Yes, but at least one of his ARs publicly says otherwise.
The point I was trying to make is that I don't take sloppy or partial notes on the assumption an AR will bail me out - the vast majority of the refereeing I've done in my career so far has been solo, so you simply don't get that luxury. My notes HAVE to be correct, because most of the time, I don't have a backup system.
On the occasions where I do have AR's to act as a backup, then great. If I do make a mistake with the number of cautions, then I genuinely think I'll probably realise it - but a quick wander over to compare notes with the Senior AR is still going to be helpful to sell it after not initially showing red.
Spinning the player to point their back to the Senior AR is great practice and something I'm conscious that I need to do better when I do get to work with NAR's. But, by definition that means the junior AR is unlikely to be able to see the shirt number, and I maintain that having them drag you over for that is nonsense. And I still think that's true if the senior AR can't see the shirt, that's just tough luck - maintaining a backup record has to be a lower priority than almost any other decision the referee has to make during a match.
The Poll comparisons are irrelevant to most of us BTW - he had comms I'm sure? So shouldn't it just be routine to confirm a shirt number over the mic? Whatever happened in that famous situation, it's not really a relevant example for most of us.
I dont think they had mics then if I remember correctly. Could be wrong.
Spinning player to show their number to senior is something I need to work on too.
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
Good point about 'too much self belief' - we've had an extra sub and a wrong in law penalty procedure both carried out with 3 high level experienced colleagues in attendance, so as you say "I'm always right" is never a good attitude to have as the man leading the team - any team come to that!
one
RefChat Addict
A few years ago I was watching a grassroots cup u18 game with over 30 years experience between ref and senior AR. First year Junior AR but a good one. An all in brawl broke out with punch and kicks being thrown by many. At the end of it both the ref and senior AR who got involved in the think of it had the same player for send off and no one else they knew there should be more. Junior AR who watched it from a safe distance had 5 players for send off all numbers written in his notebooks with an action against each. He said he was following instructions for mass con from the previous games ref (he was also an AR for). The ref was very grateful.
In numerous occasions I have gone with my junior AR's 'decision' over mine because he/she had a much more credible view even though I was reasonably sure of mine. This is about getting the final decision right, team work and not throwing your team mate under the bus.
In numerous occasions I have gone with my junior AR's 'decision' over mine because he/she had a much more credible view even though I was reasonably sure of mine. This is about getting the final decision right, team work and not throwing your team mate under the bus.
Anubis
RefChat Addict
yes, anything can happen, to anyone.
takes two secs to check in with AR after a caution, any doubt whatsoever, the pitch is not that big, we have voices,
" Davie caution was for blue 5"
nobody looking for flags waved or going face to face, just simple communication
its not really asking a lot for three officials to know exactly whats happenimg on the game they are involved with.
Edit: I see this point has already been made.
I'm not saying the AR has to drag the referee over. We have voices, and there will be loads of occasions where the referee is close to the AR, such as after getting into position after a goal kick. If for example the caution was in the far corner to AR1 I would go wider at the next GK restart on that side to make sure he knew who I had cautioned, it takes seconds.
Both examples of good contributions from a junior AR, and exactly what I would want, but not that relevant to what we're discussing.
Obviously both AR's are there to help you get decisions right - but that's not the same as inserting themselves into petty admin that you should be capable of handling on your own. And maybe you want to go out of your way to confirm with the senior AR, but any junior AR insisting on shouting at me or flagging me over to know who was cautioned will quickly be told to shut up and leave me alone to concentrate on more important things.
Remember that we are on a thread where the OP was junior AR, and @Anubis has multiple times referenced having three books match. I don't ask my junior AR to take notes at all (eyes and ears), so I'd be very unimpressed by them calling me over for this reason: both becasue they ignored my instructions, but double-so that they then interrupted me in order to do so.
one
RefChat Addict
This is the type of managing your team that I was trying to bring your attention to that helps no one.
Your AR may well be wrong but two wrongs don't make a right. 10 minutes later you'd be issuing a second yellow without a red (for whatever reason) and the AR knows this but won't care the slightest bit to bring to your attention. Or a mass con you have to deal with and the AR is thinking exactly that, let him deal with it, not my problem.
Understood. But a good pre match ought to iron out these issues anyhow.
I'm with Graeme myself.
It grinds my gears when we've agreed pre match who is going to do what (in my case Juniour AR takes score, senior takes full match record less score) and following a goal I see senior recording the score. Not least that in 11 years reffing I have never once had a query over the scoreline so having 3 the same is solving a problem that doesnt exist.
If junior AR decides he is keeping a record he has either not listened or is being obtuse.
Ooh, don't suppose you have a link or something so I can go read it. I wasn't aware the A/R commented on it.
Anubis
RefChat Addict
An AR shouting to ne, " what number did you caution" is dilligent
as AR, am writing. The double yellow and not sent off renders the whole referee team responsible and i can assure you it will not be me.
Am not getting a doing, or any part of one due to ' the referee says so'
If my pre-match instructions to my Junior AR are "eyes and ears" and I find out they've been staring at their notebook when I need them to be the eyes for the team, I won't be happy. And if we miss an incident of VC because of that, we're in a considerably worse position than if the 3rd record book doesn't match the other two.
But if you were my AR2, and I saw you writing cautions when I had told you to only record goals, I wouldn't be best impressed. At the same time, should something go wrong and I caution someone twice and don't send them off I would make it absolutely clear to the authorities that you were blameless as I'd told you not to record cautions (unless obviously I'd seen you ignoring me, in which you're in the dock with the rest of us).
one
RefChat Addict
No I have not missed it. But I think you have both missed my point. I did agree the AR (junior or not) is wrong.
Your game management skills is more than just managing players and the bench. It includes your AR's and in my opinion the way @GraemeS has responded to a mistake form an AR is very wrong and can only lead to further no good things. There are better ways of handling it.
Edit: the examples I used don't necessarily need recording. But that's beside the point.
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