Be aware!

[GraemeS]

No I have not missed it. But I think you have both missed my point. I did agree the AR (junior or not) is wrong.

Your game management skills is more than just managing players and the bench. It includes your AR's and in my opinion the way @GraemeS has responded to a mistake form an AR is very wrong and can only lead to further no good things. There are better ways of handling it.

Edit: the examples I used don't necessarily need recording. But that's beside the point.

For a mistake, I agree with you.

But if we ever found ourselves in this position, I will have given explicit pre-match instructions to the AR to be the eyes and ears. So this isn't someone who is having a bit of a non-focused moment, it's someone who not only has consciously choosen to ignore pre-match instructions, but is self-centered enough not to realise how wrong they are by insisting I take a break from my game to reinforce their incorrect actions.

They need to clearly and firmly be reminded that they've been given instructions and need to follow them. And if it happens again, I'll absolutely be giving up on doing so politely.

 

[Anubis]

But if you were my AR2, and I saw you writing cautions when I had told you to only record goals, I wouldn't be best impressed. At the same time, should something go wrong and I caution someone twice and don't send them off I would make it absolutely clear to the authorities that you were blameless as I'd told you not to record cautions (unless obviously I'd seen you ignoring me, in which you're in the dock with the rest of us).

the word of the referee holds no water,

have experoenced it, fairly recent in two capacities.

All the officials get a doing.

again, the english fa might have different protocol.

but if am taking part in the game, i am knowing exactly whats going on.
if anyone wants a bit part player, they can hire a cardboard cut out

 

[GraemeS]

the word of the referee holds no water,

have experoenced it, fairly recent in two capacities.

All the officials get a doing.

again, the english fa might have different protocol.

but if am taking part in the game, i am knowing exactly whats going on.
if anyone wants a bit part player, they can hire a cardboard cut out

Seriously? Your advice here is that if you're told to be "eyes and ears" by the referee, the correct thing to do is ignore him, stick your nose in your book and make sure your own arse is covered? Appalling advice!

 

[Anubis]

Seriously? Your advice here is that if you're told to be "eyes and ears" by the referee, the correct thing to do is ignore him, stick your nose in your book and make sure your own arse is covered? Appalling advice!

my factual take ( not advice) is here ( maybe not where you are), ( i can only post on factual matters here, not there), is that ( with numerous proven examples), all the officials are given a doing on say, double yellow not sent off


if where you are, your FA choose to clear the far away Ar, thats up to them

here, we all get the shafting. Petsonally, am not wanting the shafting.

so, here ( maybe not where you are), if you wish to eliminate the chances of getting a doing, its vital to have an up to date book

" because the ref said so", means nothing in front on the national fa.

 

[JamesL]

my factual take ( not advice) is here ( maybe not where you are), ( i can only post on factual matters here, not there), is that ( with numerous proven examples), all the officials are given a doing on say, double yellow not sent off


if where you are, your FA choose to clear the far away Ar, thats up to them

here, we all get the shafting. Petsonally, am not wanting the shafting.

so, here ( maybe not where you are), if you wish to eliminate the chances of getting a doing, its vital to have an up to date book

" because the ref said so", means nothing in front on the national fa.

Okay - so I am assuming the pre match the referee says everyone keeps a record then, in all cases?

I can state as fact in England that only the senior AR is to keep a match record and it is pretty much accepted practise to allocate junior AR score keeping responsibility.

What about a team of 4 (based on your posts you have plenty of experience working within) are you really keeping 4 records? It's overkill.

Yes, we have 1 example where Graham Poll gave the same player 3 yellow cards. But it's so rare, indeed at least as far as I know, I have never given the same player 3 yellows (I did once show a player, yellow followed by red to promptly realise he had not yet been booked). I can also be certain in the games I do at least that the opposition are keeping tabs on who is And isn't booked for the opposition based on the numerous "he's already booked ref" shouts I hear that I am reasonably confident I won't make a similar mistake.

I also have a good memory so if I follow the correct caution procedure where I am that I'd recognise a player I have already sanctioned, I'd at least get a de ja veux and confirm on my record. I have there another layer of protection from committing this faux pas.

 

[RustyRef]

the word of the referee holds no water,

have experoenced it, fairly recent in two capacities.

All the officials get a doing.

again, the english fa might have different protocol.

but if am taking part in the game, i am knowing exactly whats going on.
if anyone wants a bit part player, they can hire a cardboard cut out

Depends entirely on who is running the hearing and how sensible they are. I was involved in a charge where I gave advice to the referee which he acted on, that was later deemed to be incorrect in law (it wasn't, but hey ho). The referee told the FA that I had told him what happened and he had chosen the sanction based on that advice, therefore the fault lied with him. He was suspended for 3 weeks, I was sent what amounted to a written warning, and the other AR faced no action.

Of course if the referee denies he told AR2 not to write down cautions AR2 has the option of taking it on the chin or appealing it, hoping AR1 backs him up. Thankfully such referees are few and far between, but sadly they do exist.

 

[Joshref]

Depends entirely on who is running the hearing and how sensible they are. I was involved in a charge where I gave advice to the referee which he acted on, that was later deemed to be incorrect in law (it wasn't, but hey ho). The referee told the FA that I had told him what happened and he had chosen the sanction based on that advice, therefore the fault lied with him. He was suspended for 3 weeks, I was sent what amounted to a written warning, and the other AR faced no action.

Of course if the referee denies he told AR2 not to write down cautions AR2 has the option of taking it on the chin or appealing it, hoping AR1 backs him up. Thankfully such referees are few and far between, but sadly they do exist.

I read that final line 3 times and saw “sadly such referees are few and far between, but thankfully they do exist” all 3 times. Really confused at what you meant, I read it a fourth time and realised my mistake. Might be time for bed!

 

[Anubis]

Depends entirely on who is running the hearing and how sensible they are. I was involved in a charge where I gave advice to the referee which he acted on, that was later deemed to be incorrect in law (it wasn't, but hey ho). The referee told the FA that I had told him what happened and he had chosen the sanction based on that advice, therefore the fault lied with him. He was suspended for 3 weeks, I was sent what amounted to a written warning, and the other AR faced no action.

Of course if the referee denies he told AR2 not to write down cautions AR2 has the option of taking it on the chin or appealing it, hoping AR1 backs him up. Thankfully such referees are few and far between, but sadly they do exist.

The national FA here line is clear, double yellows, incorrect number of subs, application of law errors, all officials are pumped.

of course might be different in other places.

There is no movement for sensibility, its written in stone.

thats not my opinion or wished outcome, but factally how it is.

 

[Will_A]

my factual take ( not advice) is here ( maybe not where you are), ( i can only post on factual matters here, not there), is that ( with numerous proven examples), all the officials are given a doing on say, double yellow not sent off


if where you are, your FA choose to clear the far away Ar, thats up to them

here, we all get the shafting. Petsonally, am not wanting the shafting.

so, here ( maybe not where you are), if you wish to eliminate the chances of getting a doing, its vital to have an up to date book

" because the ref said so", means nothing in front on the national fa.

Based on this attitude to teamwork, I’m glad you’re not Cornwall based and I’m hopeful I won’t find you as my AR in the future.

Im completely with @JamesL here, if you’re given instructions by the referee and wilfully chose to ignore them then you’re asking for trouble.

 

[Anubis]

Based on this attitude to teamwork, I’m glad you’re not Cornwall based and I’m hopeful I won’t find you at my AR in the future.

Im completely with @JamesL here, if you’re given instructions by the referee and wilfully chose to ignore them then you’re asking for trouble.

its factual .

as said, clearly, not my opinion or wish.

Again, diff national FAs might take a different stance.

the trouble comes when the head of refereeing asks you as Ar why an incorrect number of subs was used. The game as a whole trumps a referee instruction,

 

[Martiju]

This really is one of those cultural/geographical things I think. Here there is no 'Head of Refereeing' to take you to task for such issues - and in my experience the Referee really is the leader of the team and ARs are there to assist, not to insist.

Communication mechanisms also play a large part - so I would absolutely step in if I thought the referee was going to make an error in law (by buzzing a lot if that's an option, but by raising a flag if not, although my bar would be higher for that) but otherwise I'll do my best to carry out my instructions as requested, regardless of any personal preference.

 

[socal lurker]

Based on this attitude to teamwork, I’m glad you’re not Cornwall based and I’m hopeful I won’t find you at my AR in the future.

Im completely with @JamesL here, if you’re given instructions by the referee and wilfully chose to ignore them then you’re asking for trouble.

This really opens a bit of a challenge in terms of how far an R is entitled to vary instructions from directed norms. If those overseeing the referees in an area are telling officials that all three officials are supposed to keep a complete book, the an R contradicting that is a problem referee and is not someone I would want to work with. Where those directions don't come from "on high," it is much easier to say "do what ever the R says."

That said, my understanding of protocols here in the U.S. is that ARs are evaluated on following the R instructions. So if the R tells the ARs to do something non-standard, any problems from the ARs following the instruction fall on the R, not the AR. And I do think that is the way it should be.

 

[Ben448844]

Depends entirely on who is running the hearing and how sensible they are. I was involved in a charge where I gave advice to the referee which he acted on, that was later deemed to be incorrect in law (it wasn't, but hey ho). The referee told the FA that I had told him what happened and he had chosen the sanction based on that advice, therefore the fault lied with him. He was suspended for 3 weeks, I was sent what amounted to a written warning, and the other AR faced no action.

Of course if the referee denies he told AR2 not to write down cautions AR2 has the option of taking it on the chin or appealing it, hoping AR1 backs him up. Thankfully such referees are few and far between, but sadly they do exist.

The suspension of a referee always seems ridiculously harsh. What does it achieve? Granted it sounds like the ref has lied here so fair enough but I hear alot about referee suspensions. Maybe it's one for another thread but can refs be suspended for genuine mistakes?

 

[RustyRef]

The suspension of a referee always seems ridiculously harsh. What does it achieve? Granted it sounds like the ref has lied here so fair enough but I hear alot about referee suspensions. Maybe it's one for another thread but can refs be suspended for genuine mistakes?

He definitely didn't lie, he in effect protected me by saying he had made the decision, whereas I had suggested he went with a caution rather than red and that is what he did. He would have still been in trouble had he said I had made the decision as the AR is really only there to advise, chances are then we would both have been clobbered, but he protected me.

There's just an expectation in England that at L4 and above if you are incorrect in law you get a three week ban. That's a distinction between getting a decision wrong though, for example you aren't getting charged and suspended for missing an obvious penalty, ball over goal line, a punch, etc. But if you play extra time when you shouldn't (or vice versa), mess up the restart from penalty encroachment, allow too many subs, caution a player twice without sending them off, etc, you are going to get charged and suspended for three weeks. I suppose you could at least it is consistent.

 

[Anubis]

This really is one of those cultural/geographical things I think. Here there is no 'Head of Refereeing' to take you to task for such issues - and in my experience the Referee really is the leader of the team and ARs are there to assist, not to insist.

Communication mechanisms also play a large part - so I would absolutely step in if I thought the referee was going to make an error in law (by buzzing a lot if that's an option, but by raising a flag if not, although my bar would be higher for that - but otherwise I'll do my best to carry out my instructions as requested, regardless of any personal preference.

I think thats the issue, folk dont appreciate other countries do things different.

game stopped on 87 mins, all three censured
incorrect restart following an off the ball act of violence, all three crucified ( yes even the far away at and no comms in use)
incorrect number subs used, all three marked u/s ( yes even the far side ar with nothing to do with the tech areas)


given its proven it can happen to me, its perfrctly understandable to take every precaution to make sure it does not, I rather have words off an unhappy referee than the cheif pudding himself.

 

[Will_A]

I think thats the issue, folk dont appreciate other countries do things different.

game stopped on 87 mins, all three censured
incorrect restart following an off the ball act of violence, all three crucified ( yes even the far away at and no comms in use)
incorrect number subs used, all three marked u/s ( yes even the far side ar with nothing to do with the tech areas)


given its proven it can happen to me, its perfrctly understandable to take every precaution to make sure it does not, I rather have words off an unhappy referee than the cheif pudding himself.

Thats fair enough if that’s the case.

In England, as lots have said, it’s unheard of for all 3 officials to be punished based on the referees decision. Hence why it’s expected that the AR follows the referees pre match instructions.

 

[Ben448844]

He definitely didn't lie, he in effect protected me by saying he had made the decision, whereas I had suggested he went with a caution rather than red and that is what he did. He would have still been in trouble had he said I had made the decision as the AR is really only there to advise, chances are then we would both have been clobbered, but he protected me.

There's just an expectation in England that at L4 and above if you are incorrect in law you get a three week ban. That's a distinction between getting a decision wrong though, for example you aren't getting charged and suspended for missing an obvious penalty, ball over goal line, a punch, etc. But if you play extra time when you shouldn't (or vice versa), mess up the restart from penalty encroachment, allow too many subs, caution a player twice without sending them off, etc, you are going to get charged and suspended for three weeks. I suppose you could at least it is consistent.

Apologies I read that wrong.

If I recieved a suspension for a mistake then that would be me done. I would never pick up the whistle again.

 

[RustyRef]

Apologies I read that wrong.

If I recieved a suspension for a mistake then that would be me done. I would never pick up the whistle again.

Best to think of it as error in law than mistake, i.e. you saw what happened clearly but then applied law wrong. I think you are going for L4, and unfortunately if you do that at that level and above you will be charged and if found proven suspended.

 

[one]

Best to think of it as error in law than mistake, i.e. you saw what happened clearly but then applied law wrong. I think you are going for L4, and unfortunately if you do that at that level and above you will be charged and if found proven suspended.

I can see merits in a suspension if you deliberately ignore the law. But it's absolutely ridiculous to suspend a referee otherwise. It sounds to me it's done to please the clubs involved or the football bodies.

Would a player get suspended for missing an empty net or kicking a penalty backwards?

 

[Ben448844]

Best to think of it as error in law than mistake, i.e. you saw what happened clearly but then applied law wrong. I think you are going for L4, and unfortunately if you do that at that level and above you will be charged and if found proven suspended.

Yeah I'm fully aware of that and why it happens and I'm not making a big deal of it, but if I was suspended that would be it on principle.