The Ref Stop

Spain Vs Russia

Better add my 2p worth, clear handball for me, yes as usual we can all argue the wording of the law and yes am a huge fan of not giving handballs based on the word "deliberate" but as we know and as the ref committee explained 72 hours ago, there is more to it than just "deliberate", there is the deliberate blocking of the ball with the arm no matter what happens, the making yourself bigger to block the ball with any body part possible, I only saw the game on and off so I might be wrong on this, but, had the ref or VAR has any doubts on this huge call, it would have been recommended that ref goes to take another look at it, the fact it never went that far tells me too that the ref, and video truck were all perfectly happy with it, it is one again though like me and some others said on the prev post, if the law was "did the player do anything to prevent the ball striking him", then you would be correctly awarding this every time.
 
The Ref Stop
QuaverRef said:
That doesn't make sense. If he's facing the attacker and sticks his arm up hoping that the ball will hit it, that's handball. Why does it matter which way he is facing? The deliberate action and the intent is still the same
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Unless he has eyes in the back of his head, I fail to see how it can be deliberate. He might have a good idea where the ball is, but he doesn't for sure - how can it be deliberate handling then if he's going by guesswork?!
 
QuaverRef said:
Guesswork is still a deliberate act. If he tries to stop the ball by putting his arm up knowing the attacker behind him is likely to win it, whether he guesses or not as to where the ball will end up, it's still deliberate
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Guesswork on the refs part to think it was deliberate especially as it was happening behind him! Complete guesswork!
 
QuaverRef said:
That doesn't make sense. If he's facing the attacker and sticks his arm up hoping that the ball will hit it, that's handball. Why does it matter which way he is facing? The deliberate action and the intent is still the same
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Sorry, that’s just silly logic! It’s deflected, an unexpected ball!
 
Maybe Pique took cheating to a new level. It's unreasonable for us to officiate based on throw-away comments by the tournament committee. Put it in the book, but don't just make it up as we go along. I'd still be interested in any circular that may have been referred to in this thread which relates to this incident. An absence of such guidance still has me leaning towards proximity and ball to hand arguments (the only two criteria hard coded in the book)
 
alexgr said:
Unless he has eyes in the back of his head, I fail to see how it can be deliberate. He might have a good idea where the ball is, but he doesn't for sure - how can it be deliberate handling then if he's going by guesswork?!
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By making his body bigger knowing that the attacker behind him was likely to win it. What other reason is there to put your arm in the air like that? He's already jumped, he's already on the way down, he's already made the movement to put his arm down and then sticks it back up again, full stretch!
 
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QuaverRef said:
By making his body bigger knowing that the attacker behind him was likely to win it. What other reason is there to put your arm in the air like that? He's already jumped, he's already on the way down, he's already made the movement to put his arm down and then sticks it back up again, full stretch!
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And yet that still isn't deliberate handling. It's deliberately putting your hand in the air in the hope the ball hits it. I agree, it should be a penalty, but it's not what the law says.
 
Scenario 1: DFK outside the box, wall line up inside the box. Defenders in the wall line up with both hands in the air (imagine a soldier surrendering). Free kick gets taken, strikes raised arm/hand of one of the defenders. We are all expecting/giving a penalty, yes?

Scenario 2: Exactly same as above, except this time wall lines up facing their own goal, rather than the DFK taker, I.e they have their backs to the ball. Arms in the air as per scenario one. Free kick gets taken, strikes raised arm/hand of one of the defenders. What are we all giving here?
 
RefJef said:
Scenario 1: DFK outside the box, wall line up inside the box. Defenders in the wall line up with both hands in the air (imagine a soldier surrendering). Free kick gets taken, strikes raised arm/hand of one of the defenders. We are all expecting/giving a penalty, yes?

Scenario 2: Exactly same as above, except this time wall lines up facing their own goal, rather than the DFK taker, I.e they have their backs to the ball. Arms in the air as per scenario one. Free kick gets taken, strikes raised arm/hand of one of the defenders. What are we all giving here?
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Er.. you don't need your arms up in a wall, but players do raise their arms for balance and leverage when jumping...
I've had a look back through recent circulars and can't find any guidance related to this incident. And yet, some of us have ignored our training somehow. I'm not yet adept at the art of mind reading, so I'm still inclined to stick with the two main criteria for identifying HB in the book
 
alexgr said:
Unless he has eyes in the back of his head, I fail to see how it can be deliberate. He might have a good idea where the ball is, but he doesn't for sure - how can it be deliberate handling then if he's going by guesswork?!
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It's been said several times in this thread, and in the post above yours, that "deliberate" means different things in the LotG and real life. For the LotG and IFAB and UEFA and Fifa and Collina - deliberate includes, well, he said it at the top of the page and you know it anyway;)
 
santa sangria said:
It's been said several times in this thread, and in the post above yours, that "deliberate" means different things in the LotG and real life. For the LotG and IFAB and UEFA and Fifa and Collina - deliberate includes, well, he said it at the top of the page and you know it anyway;)
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Collina could come to my house on a golden chariot and I still wouldn’t care. If Collina wants it being called like that, then he can take it to IFAB and change the law. There has been ample time to do so and he hasn’t.
 
alexgr said:
Collina could come to my house on a golden chariot and I still wouldn’t care. If Collina wants it being called like that, then he can take it to IFAB and change the law. There has been ample time to do so and he hasn’t.
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If Collinia came to my house I would congratulate him on making a career on having a bald head and a stare

Slightly above average ref whose reputation was better than the reality
 
alexgr said:
Collina could come to my house on a golden chariot and I still wouldn’t care. If Collina wants it being called like that, then he can take it to IFAB and change the law. There has been ample time to do so and he hasn’t.
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Absolutely...
Collina might have said we're getting rid of the offside law, but 99% of referees worldwide would not have been watching that chit chat
If Collina came to my house, I'd release the hounds
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Surely you would have to know where the ball is to deliberately stop it or else everything else is guesswork?
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We all know thst its not deliberate as in intent - but a "deliberate act" of the hand/arm making contact with the ball. Which are two subtly different actions.
I recall a similar penalty, maybe 2-3 seasons ago where a newcastle player (mbemba?) Did something similar and most agreed it was the correct outcome to penalise.
 
And here it is: (sorry cant find a vid)
Not looking at the ball but clearly a deliberate act of making contact with the ball using the arm. Imo these incidents are as similar as you'll get and both were called corrrectly by the match official involved.
3018CA4D00000578-3397788-Former_World_Cup_referee_Howard_Webb_claimed_a_penalty_because_M-a-19...jpg
and here isnthe pique one for comparison

captura-de-la-mano-de-pique-en-el-penalti-ante-rusia-en-los-octavos-de-final-del-mundial-2018-...jpg
 
Big Cat said:
Er.. you don't need your arms up in a wall, but players do raise their arms for balance and leverage when jumping...
I've had a look back through recent circulars and can't find any guidance related to this incident. And yet, some of us have ignored our training somehow. I'm not yet adept at the art of mind reading, so I'm still inclined to stick with the two main criteria for identifying HB in the book
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The point I was trying to clarify was the difference between the player facing the ball and not facing the ball.

somewhere in the thread some have said that it can’t be handball as he couldn’t see the ball and it was therefore luck that the ball struck his arm, and no free kick. If you follow that logic, then players would be able to “do”my scenario 2 above (when in wall, backs to free kick taker, raise arms) with impunity.

I’m still trying to get my head round it to confirm the physics, but I think raising the arms once you have jumped and are off the ground will have a net downward effect on the body (Newton’s laws and all that) so there is no reason for a player to raise their arms - when already in flight - other then to put them in the way of the ball. However, two caveats here: one, any effect (either way) will be negligible; two, my Physics may be flawed.
 
Clear penalty all day long at any level. And I also wondered if Ramos was wearing rings taped up as well. I also think at grass roots level the defenders would be calling the offender a stupid **** for doing it.
 
Had It hit him without rebound I’m in agreement, After the rebound I’m totally not in agreement. How can that possibly be deliberate facing away from the ball? No criteria is ticked, bad call for me!
 
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