Man City vs Arsenal

[socal lurker]

Agree and that much is obvious tbh. But we're talking about PL matches here. Refs don't lose control. Most decisions bring the same result regardless of the referee in charge. Professional players have to be professional and not allow frustration to effect their performances.

I pretty much agree—though I think there are games where poor choices by an R, even at that level, do help the game spiral downwards—they just happen far less than at lower levels. But even the best refs sometimes lay an egg that contributes to a game going south. I always look at discussions here as what we can learn for our games, not just for the professional level. And in thinking of our games, the contribution we have- good and bad—to games deteriorating is much higher.

 

[one]

But even the best refs sometimes lay an egg that contributes to a game going south.

Disagree with the word 'contribute'. Maybe 'triggers'?. What I am trying to make clear is that everyone is accountable for their own actions.

A leg braking tackle is sole the responsibility of the tackler and the referee can not be blamed for it because he did not send off an opponent player two minutes earlier when he made the same tackle.

 

[bloovee]

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Disagree with the word 'contribute'. Maybe 'triggers'?. What I am trying to make clear is that everyone is accountable for their own actions.

A leg braking tackle is sole the responsibility of the tackler and the referee can not be blamed for it because he did not send off an opponent player two minutes earlier when he made the same tackle.

The "lighter touch" on fouls at the start of the season was swiftly abandoned, as some players took it as licence to maim.

Referees set the tone.

 

[bloovee]

But law defines it as impeding progress, not trying to - an important difference.

So it's carte blanche for players grabbing shirts now, is it?

 

[Trip]

So it's carte blanche for players grabbing shirts now, is it?

It depends whether they impede their opponent. If they do, it's a foul. If they don't, it isn't.

 

[RustyRef]

It depends whether they impede their opponent. If they do, it's a foul. If they don't, it isn't.

If you grab hold of someone's shirt for any kind of time you impair their progress. After all, why would you do it?

 

[ARF]

If you grab hold of someone's shirt for any kind of time you impair their progress. After all, why would you do it?

How exactly did Xhaka impede Silva's movement with that particular shirt pull? Impeding the movement of Silva's face into the floor perhaps...

 

[Trip]

If you grab hold of someone's shirt for any kind of time you impair their progress. After all, why would you do it?

In this particular instance Xhaka probably intended to impede the opponent but ended up not doing so.

 

[one]

In this particular instance Xhaka probably intended to impede the opponent but ended up not doing so.

That because Silva progressed himself downward instead of forward

 

[bloovee]

I wonder how much of a meltdown there would have been if Mahrez's penalty had rebounded toward Jesus and he didn't get to the ball because his progress was impeded by Lacazette holding his shirt (as he was) and it was another penalty, and a red card for Lacazette for DOGSO.

And if let's call it "making the most of being fouled", is "cheating", what about Ramsdale spending 15 seconds scuffing the penalty spot while the OFR was happening?

 

[Russell Jones]

If you grab hold of someone's shirt for any kind of time you impair their progress. After all, why would you do it?

You're right, that will undoubtedly be the intent of the person grabbing. However IFAB deliberately decided to introduce the concept of 'holding that has no impact' into the laws which suggests that they see at least some holds as trifling and unworthy of punishment

 

[Anubis]

So it's carte blanche for players grabbing shirts now, is it?

That same shirt pull on halfway, same players

a- the City player wont be drawing in the pull
b- the City player wont even know he been pulled
c- the City player wont defy gravity and land ( his arms nicely positioned to catch his fall), forwards

now move the incident into the box, we see it for what it is. Deception

highly skilled, well trained, calculated cheating.

 

[QuaverRef]

Not quiet sure I agree with this. This is the very thing we are trying to rid football of, players deliberately going down because the believe they have been fouled.

I also think what the referee on the day believes is a lot more relevant that us here on the forum. And as already said, the ref initially didn't give the foul, and without the dive I am reasonably certain VAR would not have recommended a OFR.

I do agree with you in that it’s what we don’t want in the game and the exaggerated fall sold the penalty, I just fail to see who has been deceived if we agree it’s a foul

 

[Matthew]

There's actually a wider issue here and it isn't a new one. In the PL you HAVE to go down to get the decision - if Bernardo tried to play on there or simply stopped, I guarantee no penalty would have been given.

This is a recent example I can think of (clip 1:17 onwards) - Foden was wiped out and tried to stay up/play on, so wasn't given the penalty. It happens time and time again.

Until we get to a point where referees start rewarding honesty, we will have these incidents time and time again.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Sure. And we can even go farther and say that the players are always at fault when we get to a mass con or similar situation, as nothing a ref can do would excuse such behavior. And it absolutely true that some explosions come out of nowhere and the R could have done nothing to prevent. But my point is that it is an oversimplification to say that there is never an element of the R losing control--especially at the levels most of us ref. One of the things we can do is deescalate growing tensions—if we recognize the build up up. So when we have games go in the crapper, we should always ask what we could have done differently or better in the build up--not to self flagellate or excuse misbehavior by the players, but to learn from what happened and use that to have a better outcome in the future. And sometimes the answer to that reflection is going to be that there was nothing we could have done.

Nothing to disagree with there!

 

[bloovee]

There's actually a wider issue here and it isn't a new one. In the PL you HAVE to go down to get the decision - if Bernardo tried to play on there or simply stopped, I guarantee no penalty would have been given.

This is a recent example I can think of (clip 1:17 onwards) - Foden was wiped out and tried to stay up/play on, so wasn't given the penalty. It happens time and time again.

Until we get to a point where referees start rewarding honesty, we will have these incidents time and time again.

Some reports say the match commander overruled the VAR.

 

[GraemeS]

How exactly did Xhaka impede Silva's movement with that particular shirt pull? Impeding the movement of Silva's face into the floor perhaps...

 

[James P]

There's actually a wider issue here and it isn't a new one. In the PL you HAVE to go down to get the decision - if Bernardo tried to play on there or simply stopped, I guarantee no penalty would have been given.

This is a recent example I can think of (clip 1:17 onwards) - Foden was wiped out and tried to stay up/play on, so wasn't given the penalty. It happens time and time again.

Until we get to a point where referees start rewarding honesty, we will have these incidents time and time again.

Another one was when Foden didn’t go down in the recent Liverpool vs Man City game

 

[one]

I wonder how much of a meltdown there would have been if Mahrez's penalty had rebounded toward Jesus and he didn't get to the ball because his progress was impeded by Lacazette holding his shirt (as he was) and it was another penalty, and a red card for Lacazette for DOGSO.

This is an offence by a defender when a penalty is not scored (assuming all that is stated is facts and ITOOFR). It's a retake, nothing more.

EDIT: reading this again, it does depend on when the hold occurred and does make an interesting debate. If the hold is after the kick the referee has a decision to make in terms of pen and dogso. If after the signal but before the kick then retake.

 

[bloovee]

This is an offence by a defender when a penalty is not scored (assuming all that is stated is facts and ITOOFR). It's a retake, nothing more.

I'm talking about the kick having been completed, rebounding into play. Then a foul in the PA* on an attacker trying to play the rebound.

* At least in the case cited, the attacker is in the PA. A lot of his shirt is in the hand of an opponent standing outside the PA.