Man City vs Arsenal

[one]

The first penalty wasn't clear and obvious. How many times do we go through this? If you have to slow mo and zoom in to see who's foot got there first. It is NOT CLEAR or OBVIOUS.

Agreed, yet the only speed he reviewed the second penalty was in slow mo, against the protocol. To fully appreciate the extent of the dive (or the lack of obviousness of the foul) it has to be in full speed. I can't justify the second one being a clear and obvious error using the same standard as used for the first one. It's the inconsistency of VAR that bugs me.

 

[one]

I hate the phrase "ref has lost control of the game/players". Had this been a animal circus or the zoo, I would understand it but these are fully grown men we are talking about.

I'd be happy if they said he is not using his cards or not punishing misconduct. But I think SA was spot on for all his cards and on the run or public warnings.

 

[socal lurker]

I am fairly new to reffing, so would like other opions, but it’s a direct free kick/penalty if “impedes an opponent with contact” surely getting the ball here first, which is debatable here anyway, is irrelevant. Get this a lot on weekends, “I got the ball’, but it’s surely a foul if you take the player out at the same time?

I think your looking for the wrong foul. An impeding foul (either the DFK with contact or IFK without) occur outside of playing distance of the ball. Contact within playing distance of the ball would have to be a different kind of foul.

 

[Joshref]

It was more the fact that the city back line got away with numerous fouls and didn't get cautioned. City players were loving it and they made it play to their advantage.

City, and in particular Rodri and previously Fernandinho, stop attacks before they become a promising attack. Neutrals will hopefully agree with me when I say they tend to do a lot of tactical fouls (I’m a United fan, could be bias there.) But they are so good at doing it early on, so more often that not it isn’t SPA and City get away without a booking.

I didn’t see that as much in this game though. I thought SA had a great game. I’d argue Holding’s yellow was only one that was harsh. I called both pens in real time and agreed with them when VAR came on, but I’m leaning towards what said One now, the more I see the second one, the more I wonder if it’s C and O.

 

[Littlefish]

... The first penalty wasn't clear and obvious. How many times do we go through this? If you have to slow mo and zoom in to see who's foot got there first. It is NOT CLEAR or OBVIOUS.

This I think gets to the essence of that early Pen/No Pen call.

First up, the 6 second video at post 20 would suggest a clear foul by Yellow (the keeper) in my old-timers world ... and deffo a foul under current LoTG.
So, I can see why certain fans and commentators are querying why that isn't a clear foul and the raised foot caught the attacker's foot first and bent it back. 3 or 4 inches 'late', if not more.
Secondly, and this is where I defer to the deep knowledge base here ... but the LoTG states: "If the referee decides to view the replay footage, the VAR will select the best angle/replay speed ".
So, surely, under the 2021/22 LoTG the replay speed IS part of the VAR toolkit and shall help inform 'clear and obvious'.

In the early Pen/No Pen the slo-mo frame by frame gives an answer and a fairly comprehensive one .... again, I may be missing something in which case a huge proportion of the media and fanbases are too!!

The Premier League (and soccer more broadly) are not alone in this pickle. The NFL is also having a terrible season regarding the unholy alliance of on-field officiating and VAR / Sky Judge. The answers are unlikely to emerge for their (NFL) next season and I guess we're stuck with this for a while where the use of technology and the phrase 'clear and obvious' continue to clash .

 

[RustyRef]

City, and in particular Rodri and previously Fernandinho, stop attacks before they become a promising attack. Neutrals will hopefully agree with me when I say they tend to do a lot of tactical fouls (I’m a United fan, could be bias there.) But they are so good at doing it early on, so more often that not it isn’t SPA and City get away without a booking.

They didn't today, as I mentioned earlier Man City only committed five fouls all game. They certainly have in the past, but not today.

 

[bloovee]

Peter Walton... quote... 'it's not the VAR making the decision'
Joke

Isn't that what the protocol says?

 

[bloovee]

I'm all for a VAR moan but
No idea what BT sport drank last night.
Referee team got all three big match incidents correct and they're going on like it's some huge VAR screwjob.
Embarrassing by the pundits.

Their team didn't get a penalty.

 

[Ross]

Seeing all sorts of nonsense on social media about this game. I shall reserve my thoughts until I see the highlights.

 

[RustyRef]

Seeing all sorts of nonsense on social media about this game. I shall reserve my thoughts until I see the highlights.

At least you won't have to listen to Martin Keown. Normally I like him as a pundit but he couldn't have possibly been any more biased today.

Attwell got a hell of a lot of grief from the crowd, but they are aiming the abuse at the wrong person. He didn't give the penalty, and once VAR recommends a review it is pretty much a done deal as they are expected to accept that advice. Referees are continually being thrown under the bus by VAR, but not by the officials at the monitor, rather PGMOL's insistence on not using it the same as it used everywhere else. And added to that the complete radio silence from their management, they need to be explaining the current VAR inconsistencies and why the guidelines appear to keep changing within seasons.

 

[Wolf_Ref]

I will watch highlights later - unfortunately I was nursing the mother of all hangovers, and missed the game.

 

[es1]

At least you won't have to listen to Martin Keown. Normally I like him as a pundit but he couldn't have possibly been any more biased today.

Attwell got a hell of a lot of grief from the crowd, but they are aiming the abuse at the wrong person. He didn't give the penalty, and once VAR recommends a review it is pretty much a done deal as they are expected to accept that advice. Referees are continually being thrown under the bus by VAR, but not by the officials at the monitor, rather PGMOL's insistence on not using it the same as it used everywhere else. And added to that the complete radio silence from their management, they need to be explaining the current VAR inconsistencies and why the guidelines appear to keep changing within seasons.

We talk about this being a refs forum and not for fans...

I pay fir bt/sky and their commentary is, at times, so biased its untrue! Horrendous coverage from keown

 

[Will_A]

Have to agree on the bonus of not hearing Keown.

Nail in the coffin for me was the comment “Laporte has raised his arm and the referee has done nothing”

Laporte didn’t raise a bloody finger and Attwell sprinted 40-50 yards to have a clear word while the ball was still in play and then proceeded to sprint another 60-70 yards to catch up with play. Superb management in my eyes!

Didn’t like Keown as a player and don’t like him as a pundit either!

 

[Joshref]

They didn't today, as I mentioned earlier Man City only committed five fouls all game. They certainly have in the past, but not today

Did you read my second paragraph where I said this?

Their team didn't get a penalty.

McManaman is a former City player though

 

[Big Cat]

Isn't that what the protocol says?

Yes
However, generally speaking, VAR presides over KMIs whilst the R runs around for show. Yes, that's an exageration but it's not fanciful to say that the OFR is purely there to mask whose in charge of the defining moments

 

[santa sangria]

The first half was brilliant but the whole thing was a distaster for thd officials, PGMOL, IFAB and football in general. The list is long:

Injured/late AR
AR comms problems
Delayed offside flags leading to collisions (and 40 yard runs by exhausted players)
Officials failure to call C&O and pen on the Ederson foul
Officials failure to follow holding law and identify Silva’s dive and not call C&O
Referee cutting the grass at the main KMI only to reverse the decision by rerefereeing by VAR two minutes later
Poor inconsistent application of advantage
Poor inconsistent cards (Gundogan’s blatant off the ball hack in added time)

Overall this was the worst game for the officials and the whole package in a long time.

What really irked me was that the first half was fantastic football. I also thought one team was massively disadvantaged by the ineptitude of the decision-making. Sadly for whole league it also probably means the end of the title race.

For me Trevor, it stank.

 

[Ryanj91]

On Gabriel's first yellow, I've watched it a few times now.

Xhaka and him are pointing to the screen which showed the VAR replay. Rodri then runs in a barges all the players (4 City and 2 Arsenal (Gabriel and Xhaka) , which results in Gabriel stumbling and hitting the ref. Then the ref books him, I'm assuming for dissent/agression towards the ref?

I didn't see him do anything to the spot? I know Ramsdale did. Has anyone seen him actually doing something to warrant a yellow?

 

[Big Cat]

I don't like the nature if the PKs VAR reviews also. Typically 'acts of God', phantom HBs, minor tugs and anything whereby they can claim 'fact'... usually when the facts are trivial infarctions. But then they ignore blatant fouls based on absurd notion of subjectivity

 

[Will_A]

On Gabriel's first yellow, I've watched it a few times now.

Xhaka and him are pointing to the screen which showed the VAR replay. Rodri then runs in a barges all the players (4 City and 2 Arsenal (Gabriel and Xhaka) , which results in Gabriel stumbling and hitting the ref. Then the ref books him, I'm assuming for dissent/agression towards the ref?

I didn't see him do anything to the spot? I know Ramsdale did. Has anyone seen him actually doing something to warrant a yellow?

There was a short clip on BT showing him scuffing the spot right in plain sight of the AR. He was booked for that rather than bumping into the ref.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1477296394566352898

 

[Joshref]

Overall this was the worst game for the officials and the whole package in a long time.

Really? I thought Atwell dealt with a very tough game relatively well. Not saying it’s one of the best performances of the season, but nowhere near Tierney’s disasterclass 2 weeks ago with Spurs Vs Liverpool.