Level Four - go for it or no?

[JBeil]

I've been having a fairly easy season at 5 so far this year, and I've not been doing anywhere near as much soccer as I did while chasing promotion. Part of that is related to work which needs to be done over the weekend, part of it is that I seem to have vanished beneath the notice of our appointments officer for saturdays (one saturday last month, none at all this month despite making myself available on the hard-to-fill festive fixtures!), but I'm enjoying kendo a lot more seriously than I was in the past. I know if I was going to attempt level 4 I'd have to work a lot more seriously on my fitness specifically for football, and from what I'm told, the travel commitments are a pain. My work means I'm busy most weekday evenings, and I'm at the point where I'm deciding if I want to push any further or settle where I am for now. I'm 29 next year and I'm aware that I'm not going to be reaching the lofty heights of the game, so is it worth applying for promotion next year? What were people's promotion campaigns like, and do they enjoy L4 more than they did the lower levels?

 

[Viridis1886]

From reading your post, it's feels to me that you have already made a decision.

 

[JamesL]

I've been having a fairly easy season at 5 so far this year, and I've not been doing anywhere near as much soccer as I did while chasing promotion. Part of that is related to work which needs to be done over the weekend, part of it is that I seem to have vanished beneath the notice of our appointments officer for saturdays (one saturday last month, none at all this month despite making myself available on the hard-to-fill festive fixtures!), but I'm enjoying kendo a lot more seriously than I was in the past. I know if I was going to attempt level 4 I'd have to work a lot more seriously on my fitness specifically for football, and from what I'm told, the travel commitments are a pain. My work means I'm busy most weekday evenings, and I'm at the point where I'm deciding if I want to push any further or settle where I am for now. I'm 29 next year and I'm aware that I'm not going to be reaching the lofty heights of the game, so is it worth applying for promotion next year? What were people's promotion campaigns like, and do they enjoy L4 more than they did the lower levels?

The question you need to answer is, are you committed enough to refereeing to be a level 4 referee.

Can you commit enough time to achieve the criteria (15 Middles & 15 lines, attend a promotion seminar, pass a fitness test)

If and once you have achieved level 4 will that commitment be the same?

Level 4 is different from Level 5 for a number of reasons such as expected level of commitment, can be reclassified (demoted) for poor performance, poor admin, or poor availability, time (inc.travel) commitment is significantly higher, expectation on performance is a lot higher.

Your age is not a barrier to reaching a higher standard.

I was only just a level 4 at 28/29 and if you are good enough there are opportunities to progress through the pyramid.

 

[Kent Ref]

Do the "rewards" outweigh the effort?

I'd say probably not - unless you make it to level 3 and higher.

There's also the FA agenda to deal with.

 

[GraemeS]

From speaking to refs who have been there, level 4 is the level that is almost designed to weed out those who would struggle to commit to higher levels. High availability expected, to travel long distances and mostly run underwhelming lines.

I don't think people want to be an L4, I think you accept it as part of the journey to L3 and above.

 

[RustyRef]

Some interesting comments from people that I suspect have only heard about L4 and above rather than experience it. Is there an expectation of greater commitment? Absolutely, you will be officiating in semi-pro football where the players are paid to play as opposed to paying to play. Will there be more travel and more time away from home? Yes, as you will be sent further distances and be expected to be there earlier.

Comes down to what you want out of it. I had some great experiences as a L4, being involved in some amazing games and meeting a lot of top people that I am still friends with now. Yes, my goal was to get to L3 as I preferred refereeing to lining, and once I got there the memorable experiences went up a notch. Refereeing a local derby in front of over 2,000 people, being on the line in front of huge crowds, and being involved in several live televised games will all live with me for ever.

As for an "FA agenda", that is a myth. I had a demanding job all the way through my time at L4 and L3, but the FA and before that my supply league were fine with that because I kept them fully up to date. I had to come off lots of games due to being sent away for work at short notice, but not once was I criticised or sanctioned for this. I would often be told the words "don't worry, refereeing doesn't pay the bills" when telling my appointments officer I had to come off a game, they couldn't have really been more supportive. I also didn't really fit the profile of the type of referee they were looking for, I was in my mid 30s when I got L4, and 40s when I went up to L3. If there was any kind of "FA agenda" I certainly never saw it.

 

[Kes]

If your working hours and general availability are a problem then it's (IMO) inadvisable to look at promotion to Supply League level. As already mentioned the commitment required and the refereeing skill level are much more pronounced than that asked of a L5.

From next season, it appears that promotion from L5 to L4 is going to be a lot more difficult to achieve than before anyway ...

 

[GraemeS]

Some interesting comments from people that I suspect have only heard about L4 and above rather than experience it. Is there an expectation of greater commitment? Absolutely, you will be officiating in semi-pro football where the players are paid to play as opposed to paying to play. Will there be more travel and more time away from home? Yes, as you will be sent further distances and be expected to be there earlier.

This is exactly what I was getting at and what my impression was from talking to other colleagues. It may be a geographic thing, or it may be things have changed since you did your L5-L4, but I already run lines for paid players at L5, and also referee those teams U23s where the paid players often go for fitness or injury recovery. That step up wouldn't be the case for anyone in my position.

Also, when I do run lines for those teams, it's often for an L4 who is usually thrilled to get a relatively local middle instead of travelling hours to run lines. And I also distinctly remember one colleague from Essex who often ran lines for a particular team at L5 - he then got promoted the same summer they did and ended up running a bunch of lines for the same team the next season, just a division higher on paper!

Comes down to what you want out of it. I had some great experiences as a L4, being involved in some amazing games and meeting a lot of top people that I am still friends with now. Yes, my goal was to get to L3 as I preferred refereeing to lining, and once I got there the memorable experiences went up a notch. Refereeing a local derby in front of over 2,000 people, being on the line in front of huge crowds, and being involved in several live televised games will all live with me for ever.

Exactly - at L3. If you want to work towards being a specialist AR, L4 can be rewarding - but if you're someone who prefers being in the middle, L4 is the obstacle in the way of L3 which is when that gets good. You're not actually disagreeing with anything I've heard or reported here - my "interesting comments" seem to be pretty accurate?

 

[bester]

He'll probably travel further on the United Counties League as a level 4 refereeing on average, then he will as an assistant on the contrib.

Was very rare to have a journey more than an hour as an assistant on the contrib in the Midlands.

Another thing to factor is in some areas there won't be a step 7 league that gives you the opportunity to referee in a team of 3 as a level 5.

 

[RustyRef]

He'll probably travel further on the United Counties League as a level 4 refereeing on average, then he will as an assistant on the contrib.

Was very rare to have a journey more than an hour as an assistant on the contrib in the Midlands.

Another thing to factor is in some areas there won't be a step 7 league that gives you the opportunity to referee in a team of 3 as a level 5.

Might well depend on where you live. I live in North London and regularly went out to East Essex and the Kent coast as both a 3 and 4, factor in the London / M25 traffic and you aren't doing those in anywhere near an hour.

 

[RustyRef]

This is exactly what I was getting at and what my impression was from talking to other colleagues. It may be a geographic thing, or it may be things have changed since you did your L5-L4, but I already run lines for paid players at L5, and also referee those teams U23s where the paid players often go for fitness or injury recovery. That step up wouldn't be the case for anyone in my position.

Also, when I do run lines for those teams, it's often for an L4 who is usually thrilled to get a relatively local middle instead of travelling hours to run lines. And I also distinctly remember one colleague from Essex who often ran lines for a particular team at L5 - he then got promoted the same summer they did and ended up running a bunch of lines for the same team the next season, just a division higher on paper!

Of course I would be a step up, you'd be going from on the line to in the middle. Might be at the same ground with the same teams, but also with way more responsibility. Take your point on travel distance and time being the same, but that's for your middles as an L4. But you will do way more step 3 / 4 lines than step 5 middles, and typically you will travel further for those and often be expected to be there much earlier. I worked with a lot of L3s that wanted everyone there at least 90 minutes before, and in many cases 2 hours.

Exactly - at L3. If you want to work towards being a specialist AR, L4 can be rewarding - but if you're someone who prefers being in the middle, L4 is the obstacle in the way of L3 which is when that gets good. You're not actually disagreeing with anything I've heard or reported here - my "interesting comments" seem to be pretty accurate?

The interesting comment was the FA agenda, and you haven't replied to that part of my post.

 

[Trip]

Level 4 is not for me. I a

From next season, it appears that promotion from L5 to L4 is going to be a lot more difficult to achieve than before anyway ...

Yes, there are suddenly a terrific number of 5->4 candidates. That was of course the whole point of changing the lower promotion schemes to be easier: to give the FA a larger pool of candidates for L4.

Whether the result is better quality L4s remains to be seen.

 

[JamesL]

. I worked with a lot of L3s that wanted everyone there at least 90 minutes before

For the Southern League, at least, that's a requirement within competition Rules:

14.4 Match Officials should be present at the appointment at least 90 minutes prior to the scheduled time of kick-off.
The appointed Referee may be required to visit the ground earlier if requested to do so by the home Club.

 

[RustyRef]

For the Southern League, at least, that's a requirement within competition Rules:

14.4 Match Officials should be present at the appointment at least 90 minutes prior to the scheduled time of kick-off.
The appointed Referee may be required to visit the ground earlier if requested to do so by the home Club.

Pretty sure that's a recent change, FA comps had always been 90 minutes but pretty sure the contrib leagues were 60. Although in reality referees wanted you there much earlier, when I was L3 I asked my ARs to aim to get there for around 13:15 to 13:30 for a 15:00 kick off, and others were earlier than that.

 

[GraemeS]

The interesting comment was the FA agenda, and you haven't replied to that part of my post.

I ignored that bit because I don't think I implied anything of the sort? L4 being designed to weed out those who are borderline in terms of availability or desire to go higher I don't think is a controversial statement? I might not have got L4, but I've been to the L4 promotion seminars and they're fairly open about that fact. I don't necessarily agree with that approach (selecting for example 10 from 100 candidates is going to get a better quality of official than weeding out half of them for non-football reasons and then selecting the best 10 from the remaining 50), but it's not a secret.

And the idea that it's not just demands on admin/availability that weeds people out, but also the fact that L4 can often not be much fun in itself for those focused on refereeing is a personal opinion, but definitely one I've heard a number of times and believe myself. Like I say, if I knew I had to do a season or two at L4 because I wanted to then get to L3 and above, I wouldn't hesitate to to do it - but if L4 is the limit of my ambitions, I think I'd have more fun sticking to high-level grassroots at L5 for those seasons.

I worked with a lot of L3s that wanted everyone there at least 90 minutes before, and in many cases 2 hours.

Well that's just nonsense. Fine to build in allowance for traffic etc, and I appreciate at real high levels you start to get safety briefings and the like, but until that point, an hour is still enough to allow for 15 minutes of bored small-talk in the changing room and/or board room before you actually have to start warming up and other pre-match.

 

[JamesL]

I ignored that bit because I don't think I implied anything of the sort? L4 being designed to weed out those who are borderline in terms of availability or desire to go higher I don't think is a controversial statement? I might not have got L4, but I've been to the L4 promotion seminars and they're fairly open about that fact. I don't necessarily agree with that approach (selecting for example 10 from 100 candidates is going to get a better quality of official than weeding out half of them for non-football reasons and then selecting the best 10 from the remaining 50), but it's not a secret.

And the idea that it's not just demands on admin/availability that weeds people out, but also the fact that L4 can often not be much fun in itself for those focused on refereeing is a personal opinion, but definitely one I've heard a number of times and believe myself. Like I say, if I knew I had to do a season or two at L4 because I wanted to then get to L3 and above, I wouldn't hesitate to to do it - but if L4 is the limit of my ambitions, I think I'd have more fun sticking to high-level grassroots at L5 for those seasons.


Well that's just nonsense. Fine to build in allowance for traffic etc, and I appreciate at real high levels you start to get safety briefings and the like, but until that point, an hour is still enough to allow for 15 minutes of bored small-talk in the changing room and/or board room before you actually have to start warming up and other pre-match.

@GraemeS it is not beyond the realms of possibility the comment was not aimed at you. I think Rusty has tried to point that out.

You didn't make the interesting comment, so it was not aimed at you.

TBF an hour is rushed at step 3. And the comp rules specifically require us to be there 90 mins before.

 

[GraemeS]

@GraemeS it is not beyond the realms of possibility the comment was not aimed at you. I think Rusty has tried to point that out.

You didn't make the interesting comment, so it was not aimed at you.

I read that as him saying I'd ignored the bit of his post that was referring to me, but fair enough, I accept that as another possible interpretation.

TBF an hour is rushed at step 3. And the comp rules specifically require us to be there 90 mins before.

OK, but why? I get that if the comp rules say 90 minutes then you don't have loads of choice, but whenever I've been asked to be anywhere near that early for my step 5 lines, it's just resulted in lots of sitting around.

Having a coffee with the committee is outdated and was mostly binned off during covid with very little ill effect. Pre-match briefing is mostly standard and could easily be cut down to <5 minutes if the FA published official "standard" pre-match and then the actual chat only needed to go over any variations from that, especially once you're at a level where you know you can rely on having experienced ARs. I've only once ever seen an official need more than 15 minutes for warm-up at that kind of level, and he was an ultra-marathon runner who needed to sprint a few extra laps of the pitch to get any kind of noticeable increase to his heart rate. Copying team sheets into books is a) a 5 minutes job, b) less mandated than in previous years and c) observed less as you go up levels anyway.

Genuine question - what am I missing that means 90 minutes is needed for L4s? I'll give you 5 minutes to get changed before and again after warm-ups, 5 minutes to fiddle with buzzers/comms kits and 5 minutes to take in team sheets (although I reckon that's easier as you go up levels and are less likely to have to hunt them down) and similarly, pitch inspection only gets more "ceremonial" as you go up the levels and have better maintained grounds. But I'm still struggling to get to an hour, let alone 90 minutes plus provision for traffic.

 

[JamesL]

I read that as him saying I'd ignored the bit of his post that was referring to me, but fair enough, I accept that as another possible interpretation.


OK, but why? I get that if the comp rules say 90 minutes then you don't have loads of choice, but whenever I've been asked to be anywhere near that early for my step 5 lines, it's just resulted in lots of sitting around.

Having a coffee with the committee is outdated and was mostly binned off during covid with very little ill effect. Pre-match briefing is mostly standard and could easily be cut down to <5 minutes if the FA published official "standard" pre-match and then the actual chat only needed to go over any variations from that, especially once you're at a level where you know you can rely on having experienced ARs. I've only once ever seen an official need more than 15 minutes for warm-up at that kind of level, and he was an ultra-marathon runner who needed to sprint a few extra laps of the pitch to get any kind of noticeable increase to his heart rate. Copying team sheets into books is a) a 5 minutes job, b) less mandated than in previous years and c) observed less as you go up levels anyway.

Genuine question - what am I missing that means 90 minutes is needed for L4s? I'll give you 5 minutes to get changed before and again after warm-ups, 5 minutes to fiddle with buzzers/comms kits and 5 minutes to take in team sheets (although I reckon that's easier as you go up levels and are less likely to have to hunt them down) and similarly, pitch inspection only gets more "ceremonial" as you go up the levels and have better maintained grounds. But I'm still struggling to get to an hour, let alone 90 minutes plus provision for traffic.

Ah! Well as a level 4 Referee, an hour is probably sufficient, I tended to go for 1hr 15.

But the commitment and time elements are more around level 4 assistant refereeing. Clubs are generally more engaging and hospitable.

There is probably a bit of hanging around, chatting and what have you but the expectation is that you are there. I like to get a drink with my team, start to get to know you if I don't already, catch up with we do. Early pitch inspection to make sure no issues there. Remember, crowds are significantly higher and spectators are generally there earlier so there is a greater admin if the game can't go ahead the later you call it.

Team sheet exchange is more professional, as in you actually have a tike to do it and on some step 3/4 leagues involves manager and captains.

My day generally looks like

90 mins before - arrival, find out where going, intros etc.

75 mins before, brew and a chat, prematch instructions.

60 mins before get changed into warm up gear etc.

45 mins before team sheets - post team sheet admin

30 mins before warm up

10 mins before final checks

5 mins bell rings

And whilst all of these things can be done, I don't want people feeling rushed and stressed by zipping from one thing to the next, a nice relaxed approach to the game is what I am looking for. And there's ways that one person whom wants to monopolise your time chatting.

 

[Quarryref]

90 minutes is mandated across all the Contrib leagues - I know as I've done all 3 this season !

I've only once had less than 90 minutes, when the M25 had one of its fun days and I arrived just over an hour before KO. Once you are used to the routine of 90 minutes, that felt really rushed and blowing the whistle at the start of the game I definitely felt less well prepared than usual.

The ones I do think are a nonsense are some of the academy games. Usually no hospitality and no-one wants to see you before team sheet exchange, but the rules on arrival times are the same as the step they are aligned to. That does mean pointless hanging about

 

[DavidObs]

I read that as him saying I'd ignored the bit of his post that was referring to me, but fair enough, I accept that as another possible interpretation.


OK, but why? I get that if the comp rules say 90 minutes then you don't have loads of choice, but whenever I've been asked to be anywhere near that early for my step 5 lines, it's just resulted in lots of sitting around.

Having a coffee with the committee is outdated and was mostly binned off during covid with very little ill effect. Pre-match briefing is mostly standard and could easily be cut down to <5 minutes if the FA published official "standard" pre-match and then the actual chat only needed to go over any variations from that, especially once you're at a level where you know you can rely on having experienced ARs. I've only once ever seen an official need more than 15 minutes for warm-up at that kind of level, and he was an ultra-marathon runner who needed to sprint a few extra laps of the pitch to get any kind of noticeable increase to his heart rate. Copying team sheets into books is a) a 5 minutes job, b) less mandated than in previous years and c) observed less as you go up levels anyway.

Genuine question - what am I missing that means 90 minutes is needed for L4s? I'll give you 5 minutes to get changed before and again after warm-ups, 5 minutes to fiddle with buzzers/comms kits and 5 minutes to take in team sheets (although I reckon that's easier as you go up levels and are less likely to have to hunt them down) and similarly, pitch inspection only gets more "ceremonial" as you go up the levels and have better maintained grounds. But I'm still struggling to get to an hour, let alone 90 minutes plus provision for traffic.

5 mins for pre-match instructions even with Standard Instructions is overly short, because a Referee needs to check that their AR’s are aware of what those Standard Instructions are. Also, as with the Laws of the Game, Standard Instructions are open to some interpretation depending on the level of football etc. There is also some different quirks that a Referee may have because of circumstances that have happened to him/her & then there are specific instructions that may be pertinent to weather conditions and specifics of the ground/FoP. I would be surprised if a Referee didn’t take 10 mins. Of course, to retain the attention of AR’s, 10 mins needs to be the limit because if their attention wanes, it doesn’t matter on how good they are, they won’t be listening!