Wolves vs Arsenal

[The Gump]

A little surprised Dale thought it was more yellow than red. Especially when Howard Webb has said in the Fernandes one if he gone in with studs then a red card is the right decision and Lewis-Skelly definately goes in with studs so can't just be a trip can it?

I do agree with him the hyperbole from the pundits has been a joke and may of fuel the fire so to speak. I just think it's unfortunate in Arsenal fans eyes, oliver has got it in for them and if this was any other referee(apart from Taylor potentially) then the anger wouldn't be quite so severe.

I think the poll on here probably says it all. I can see why MO went red, and why some here agree - especially with the still image of the studs raking the calf. But, for me at least and in real time/full speed, I don't think there's enough force to warrant red, compounded by the fact that when slowed down it appears that it's the contact with the foot that causes Doherty to go down.

That said, I'd entirely understand someone taking the opposite view and when Steven Warnock is disagreeing with the decision yet saying it isn't as bad a decision as some are making out (similar sentiments to those expressed by Dale J) it highlights what a tricky one this is.

 

[GraemeS]

I'd love for the football media to start talking about "best/acceptable/wrong" decisions rather than framing everything as a simple right/wrong binary.

 

[RefereeX]

Just seeing reference to the Fernandes red card, I think this decision is far less of an error than that one was…

 

[ladbroke8745]

The most annoying thing for me is....you have a very experienced referee that had a very close, clear and unobstructed view of the incident. He didn't deem it a "trip", he thought it was a rake to the ankle (may have graised his shin). IMO it was an orange and could have gone either way. VAR didn't think MO's decision was clearly and obviously an error, so the decision stands. That's it !! End of argument. The fans, pundits etc should just respect the referee's decision and move on. Until that happens, they're making life sooo difficult for us lot out in the middle.

This.

 

[Runner Ref]

The most annoying thing for me is....you have a very experienced referee that had a very close, clear and unobstructed view of the incident. He didn't deem it a "trip", he thought it was a rake to the ankle (may have graised his shin). IMO it was an orange and could have gone either way. VAR didn't think MO's decision was clearly and obviously an error, so the decision stands. That's it !! End of argument. The fans, pundits etc should just respect the referee's decision and move on. Until that happens, they're making life sooo difficult for us lot out in the middle.

On that basis, referees in the Premier League must never be wrong as they are all very experienced referees by the time they reach PL. They can still get things wrong as a referee. Think back to the Spurs vs Liverpool offside last season; multiple very experienced referees looked at that incident, did they get it right? No, they didn’t. Go and watch the VAR review show, HW doesn’t always say that got it right.

 

[Runner Ref]

Myles Lewis-Skelly red card: PGMOL says tackle that earned Arsenal defender red card at Wolves was high and late

Arsenal still expected to appeal Myles Lewis-Skellys red card in 1-0 win over Wolves on Saturday; Michael Oliver under scrutiny after widely-condemned decision to hand out straight red card for foul on Matt Doherty

www.skysports.com

If the statement is true that the red was for high and late, then PGMOL are really not doing much to help justify the decision. Describing it as ‘high and late’ does not fit in with laws or even their own interpretations.

 

[ladbroke8745]

Whay you and I class as high can differ, the same with whoever wrote that.
Its above the ankle so I'd go for "high" as you'd expect a challenge to be foot height.
It was late, the Wolves player was already passed him.
So not sure what was wrong saying that.
All the arsenal fans are showing the angle where the feet are at the same level but the challenge is actually above the ankle, something the fans are not highlighting as it goes against their agenda of ref bashing.

 

[Runner Ref]

Whay you and I class as high can differ, the same with whoever wrote that.
Its above the ankle so I'd go for "high" as you'd expect a challenge to be foot height.
It was late, the Wolves player was already passed him.
So not sure what was wrong saying that.
All the arsenal fans are showing the angle where the feet are at the same level but the challenge is actually above the ankle, something the fans are not highlighting as it goes against their agenda of ref bashing.

Because the laws don’t state that. If they’re going to justify something, they need to really be quoting law or at the very least their own guidance.

If ‘late and high’ is a red card, does pulling someone’s shirt by the shoulders count as a red after they have ran beyond you? After all, that is late and high…….

 

[ladbroke8745]

Because the laws don’t state that. If they’re going to justify something, they need to really be quoting law or at the very least their own guidance.

If ‘late and high’ is a red card, does pulling someone’s shirt by the shoulders count as a red after they have ran beyond you? After all, that is late and high…….

I get what you're saying now.
They've not helped themselves.

 

[DavidObs]

On that basis, referees in the Premier League must never be wrong as they are all very experienced referees by the time they reach PL. They can still get things wrong as a referee. Think back to the Spurs vs Liverpool offside last season; multiple very experienced referees looked at that incident, did they get it right? No, they didn’t. Go and watch the VAR review show, HW doesn’t always say that got it right.

That’s true, but clear & obvious errors are still relatively rare at PL league whatever the MCS panel decide.

 

[RustyRef]

But you’ve basically just described a caution. The criteria PGMOL go to says that high contact simply isn’t enough. To be considered red, it says high+full+forceful.

You just said yourself it wasn’t a huge amount of force
View attachment 7886

It could be argued that making contact with a straight leg and 6 studs is forceful. Perhaps something like Bruno Fernandes's red where he slipped and then caught high but with laces rather than studs would be classed as not forceful.

Either way, Oliver has seen the contact and gone straight red. Had Lewis-Skelly not deliberately kicked an opponent off the ball he wouldn't have given him the opportunity to take that card out, yet it is Oliver that is getting the blame, abuse and death threats rather than the player who someone seems to have escaped all accountability for his action (other than the red card).

 

[RustyRef]

Does anyone here know for a fact what it is that the club 'legally' appeals? Is it the red card or is it the suspension? If it is the red card and their team lost the game, then they should have grounds for a replay.

It is just the suspension, even if the appeal is successful the sending off stays on the record. This is because England allowing appeals goes against the principle that the referee's decision is final, FIFA won't allow them to rescind the red card (even though the media almost always report this is what happened).

 

[Runner Ref]

It could be argued that making contact with a straight leg and 6 studs is forceful. Perhaps something like Bruno Fernandes's red where he slipped and then caught high but with laces rather than studs would be classed as not forceful.

Either way, Oliver has seen the contact and gone straight red. Had Lewis-Skelly not deliberately kicked an opponent off the ball he wouldn't have given him the opportunity to take that card out, yet it is Oliver that is getting the blame, abuse and death threats rather than the player who someone seems to have escaped all accountability for his action (other than the red card).

And it could easil be argued that it was a graze at best. It could also be argued that football didn’t expect a red card. After all, people love pedalling that one out when it suits. But as @Kent Ref said, we haven’t seen it

 

[DavidObs]

It could be argued that making contact with a straight leg and 6 studs is forceful. Perhaps something like Bruno Fernandes's red where he slipped and then caught high but with laces rather than studs would be classed as not forceful.

Either way, Oliver has seen the contact and gone straight red. Had Lewis-Skelly not deliberately kicked an opponent off the ball he wouldn't have given him the opportunity to take that card out, yet it is Oliver that is getting the blame, abuse and death threats rather than the player who someone seems to have escaped all accountability for his action (other than the red card).

If this is the case, and there is absolutely no reason to doubt you, although I will have to accept the position, it does seem a bit illogical to me. If the Referee has truly made an incorrect call with a red card, this does seem harsh for the player to still have it on his record.

 

[RustyRef]

If this is the case, and there is absolutely no reason to doubt you, although I will have to accept the position, it does seem a bit illogical to me. If the Referee has truly made an incorrect call with a red card, this does seem harsh for the player to still have it on his record.

My understanding is that it is because of FIFA's stance on appeals, they don't allow them. I'm pretty sure there's never been a successful appeal at a major international tournament, they take the position that even if the decision was incorrect it stands. In many countries there's no mechanism to appeal a red card issued in domestic competitions, so I guess the argument is it is better to have it stay on your record and lose the suspension than being saddled with both.

 

[Runner Ref]

My understanding is that it is because of FIFA's stance on appeals, they don't allow them. I'm pretty sure there's never been a successful appeal at a major international tournament, they take the position that even if the decision was incorrect it stands. In many countries there's no mechanism to appeal a red card issued in domestic competitions, so I guess the argument is it is better to have it stay on your record and lose the suspension than being saddled with both.

Aye think this is correct. Looking at Bruno Fernandes stats this season, he’s listed as 2 red cards. But he was successful in appeal for one against Spurs

 

[DavidObs]

My understanding is that it is because of FIFA's stance on appeals, they don't allow them. I'm pretty sure there's never been a successful appeal at a major international tournament, they take the position that even if the decision was incorrect it stands. In many countries there's no mechanism to appeal a red card issued in domestic competitions, so I guess the argument is it is better to have it stay on your record and lose the suspension than being saddled with both.

So although many footballing countries have democratic societies, this is not the same for appeals. Odd.

 

[Wilson80]

Gallagher says on Ref Watch that MO 'still does feel he goes down his achilles'. Was wondering a couple of things: Why is he saying achilles; is he maybe saying studs caught him on the side of the lower leg? Is there some specific PGMOL guidance re. contact on the achilles and SFP?

 

[Gabriel]

Is there some specific PGMOL guidance re. contact on the achilles and SFP?

Yes. They take the stance that contact on the Achilles or on/above the ankle is dangerous (more so than contact on the foot). To the more clued up officials on here - please correct me if that is wrong!

 

[Runner Ref]

Yes. They take the stance that contact on the Achilles or on/above the ankle is dangerous (more so than contact on the foot). To the more clued up officials on here - please correct me if that is wrong!

Can you send the guidance? I’m intrigued as to what it says