U14 boys red card

[lincs22]

Hi I was refereeing a u14 boys game today it was the last minute of the game and striker was through on goal and then the defender wiped him out. Would you have given a red card

@Xavier - I think a lot can be interpreted from "defender wiped him out".... If it was a genuine tackle, mis-timed which was a DGOSO by the virtue of being outside the PA, then I can understand not dismissing the player.

But it was a bad tackle, which I would interpret wiped out as being - he goes. At that level (U14), they are fully aware of the DOGSO rule from watching TV, so a deliberate illegal challenge should be dealt with as their heroes are.

 

[mctones]

Personally the only thing I adjust for age are those things that can be subjective, the scale between careless, reckless and serious.

For clear contraventions of well defined laws such as DOGSO you have to stick to the rules.

Sent a 14yo off on Sunday, felt terrible inside for the young lad, but we have to set the standards and be consistent week in week out, the laws of the game help us do that.

 

[Trip]

Sounds a bit extra from the instructor, especially when they're present to mentor and encourage you to course completion, hardly good for your motivation at the time, surely?

He was a dick. When we did the bit after the 5 games he told a story - which I have absolutely no doubt was totally made up - about going into the home team changing room after a match and throwing the coins they'd used to pay him back at them because they had treated him badly on the pitch. There were two 15-year-old newly qualified refs in the room at the time.

Thankfully a bit of a one-off. All the other referee coaches I've come across were pretty good.

 

[Therealcjhill]

Thank you for your replies. From this I have learned that I have made the wrong decision and should have given the red no matter what the age. I am a 15 yr old referee so I learn from my mistakes and move on to the next game. Thanks for all the replies again

Honestly wouldn’t crucify yourself over this. You’re a very young ref and need to also think about protecting yourself. By the time the penalty was taken you can blow & end the game. Giving a red at that moment would have achieved nothing and could easily have flared the game, coaches screaming at you etc.. it’s easy adult experienced refs on here saying get the red out… you made the right decision.

 

[Mooseybaby]

When I ref'd I had the view u13s and above, it's 11-a-side so the gloves are off and cards are being used if necessary.

1st minute or last minute, if the offence is serious to justify a red card, then that's what they were getting.

As I posted on here before at the time, I have seen in person what can happen when a referee is lenient and fails to apply the correct sanction. U14s, DOGSO-H on the goal line (this was before the DOGSO law change and the handling element still applies now), offender given a yellow card. 2 minutes later, same player jumps in 2 footed, knee high and breaks an opponent's leg! Whilst the referee couldn't have known what would happen, why take the risk? Guess the hour delay waiting for the ambulance to arrive caused the referee amnesia as he failed to sanction for the challenge

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Honestly wouldn’t crucify yourself over this. You’re a very young ref and need to also think about protecting yourself. By the time the penalty was taken you can blow & end the game. Giving a red at that moment would have achieved nothing and could easily have flared the game, coaches screaming at you etc.. it’s easy adult experienced refs on here saying get the red out… you made the right decision.

So based on your rationale, young referees should not apply law if it may cause coaches and/or players to scream(?)

 

[Therealcjhill]

So based on your rationale, young referees should not apply law if it may cause coaches and/or players to scream(?)

Yes under the right circumstances. And 1 min to go in this Situation was the right circumstances. who are you to tell kids to make sure they follow every inch of the law and then get abused verbally or worse… where will you be to help.

 

[JamesL]

Yes under the right circumstances. And 1 min to go in this Situation was the right circumstances. who are you to tell kids to make sure they follow every inch of the law and then get abused verbally or worse… where will you be to help.

Can you please provide me with a full list of laws I ignore, which age groups at which they should be ignored up to, and also which minute in the game I should decide to start ignoring them from?

TIA.

 

[Therealcjhill]

Can you please provide me with a full list of laws I ignore, which age groups at which they should be ignored up to, and also which minute in the game I should decide to start ignoring them from?

TIA.

No but I’ll give you a list of all the young refs getting abuse. This is a really silly stance to take. The situation in OP did not warrant a red card, yes maybe in law but not to protect a 15yr old new ref. Abuse from parents and coaches is a real issue and you’re not going to be there to protect him are you. Climb off high horse.

 

[Tealeaf]

Enough of the backbiting and personal attacks.

Warning points have just been issued. Rein it in or it all gets closed down

 

[Max2]

Yes under the right circumstances. And 1 min to go in this Situation was the right circumstances. who are you to tell kids to make sure they follow every inch of the law and then get abused verbally or worse… where will you be to help.

"Who are we to tell"?!!

A representative of the (local) Football Association - paid to apply the Laws. We're not a coach, a mum, a trainer, a fan. If clubs want those to ref, go for it, but we have a duty to carry out our responsibilities.

 

[JamesL]

No but I’ll give you a list of all the young refs getting abuse. This is a really silly stance to take. The situation in OP did not warrant a red card, yes maybe in law but not to protect a 15yr old new ref. Abuse from parents and coaches is a real issue and you’re not going to be there to protect him are you. Climb off high horse.

Did you ever stop to think that the reason those children suffer abuse for doing the right thing, is because last week's ref didn't?

I'm all for relaxing how obvious an opportunity is at differing age levels. That's it though.

If you can't provide me what I have asked for, how am I to determine when I apply the law and when I don't. And as an inexperienced ref that makes actually learning the ropes even harder.

The OP did not warrant a red card? Were you there? Or is any DOGSO okay? The language used was "wiped out". That in my mind is not just a little foul and we can give matey a telling off. That language paints a picture of an overly Aggressive to foul to deny a obvious opportunity. And the kid that got away with it will potentially do it next week thinking that it's okay.

im not knocking the OP btw. He is learning. But as part of that learning , we have to identify when we make a mistake and how we can rectify that going forwards. The way to do that, and if you have any ambition in the game is to apply law.

i don't need to remind anyone that games have been replayed and referees suspended for not applying the law correctly. It's a minimum requirement we do our best to do it right imo.

 

[RustyRef]

I sometimes honestly despair about behaviours on this forum. A 15 year old referee, yes 15 years old, asks for advice about a decision he has made and then gets abuse for it (which has since been deleted). Was the decision correct? Probably not. But there are ways of delivering that message, and more importantly subsequent positive advice as to why it wasn't correct.

My view, if they are old enough to play 11 vs 11 they are old enough to know the laws. I wouldn't feel great about sending off a 14 year old for a technical offence, and would probably look to see if they was a reason not to, but if it was so blatant there was no wriggle room I'd get the red out. I'm a (very) nearly 50 year old with years of experience and loads of red cards, so imagine how that decision is for someone just starting out with next to no experience.

 

[Therealcjhill]

I’m obviously not saying any of you are wrong and I’m not here to argue with anyone but non of you are thinking of this young lad or all the other young kids reffing every weekend and the consequences this could have caused a young child. yes i do believe a young ref should take into account the consequences, as it’s them that’s going to get the abuse not you and we all know this doesn’t just mean verbal.
Previous Refs giving or not giving the right decisions has nothing to do with the rise in abuse. It’s much bigger than that and simply stating to a young kid to get the red card out regardless seems to lack any care and attention and an understanding of what’s happening at grassroots at the moment.

 

[JamesL]

I’m obviously not saying any of you are wrong and I’m not here to argue with anyone but non of you are thinking of this young lad or all the other young kids reffing every weekend and the consequences this could have caused a young child. yes i do believe a young ref should take into account the consequences, as it’s them that’s going to get the abuse not you and we all know this doesn’t just mean verbal.
Previous Refs giving or not giving the right decisions has nothing to do with the rise in abuse. It’s much bigger than that and simply stating to a young kid to get the red card out regardless seems to lack any care and attention and an understanding of what’s happening at grassroots at the moment.

There are two teams. You'll receive as much abuse for sending off as you would for not. I'd argue probably get more abuse for not sending off, in my experience.

What a crazy way to ref a game. I'm not going to make this decision because I might get shouted at.

I'd say referees not applying laws are 1 of the drivers of abuse. Let's not pretend it isn't. There is no reason that makes abuse okay but to pretend that poor performance or perceived poor performance doesn't generate some level of abuse is ludicrous.

No one is slating this young referee. No one is saying it's a red card regardless. We are actually saying apply the law. The law, can be stretched in this scenario, what is an obvious goal scoring opportunity at adults is not the same as at u14 when you apply the criteria.

Again, where the OP talks about wiping out, any leniency the player might be afforded is drastically reduced.

 

[GraemeS]

Agree with James - manager nowadays want their players "protected", doubly so at youth level. You'll get in far more hot water with the sidelines for letting the opponent boot their kids up in the air with no consequences than you will for making a perfectly defensible decision to punish the player who's being excessively forceful.

Match Control comes from getting decisions correct, in most cases even a player who's been sent off will eventually accept it if they know they deserve it. Wheras deliberately getting decisions wrong will annoy the team who lost out from that incorrect decision, and will signal to the other team that you're a soft touch who can be easily influenced if they shout loud enough. Worst of both worlds.

What you ideally want as a ref is for both sides to basically trust you to make the right decision regardless of what they shout - because then they'll stop bothering to try and influence you and will know that they're less likely to get away with poor challenges. Buckling to pressure is the exact thing that moves you away from that goal.

 

[Therealcjhill]

There are two teams. You'll receive as much abuse for sending off as you would for not. I'd argue probably get more abuse for not sending off, in my experience.

What a crazy way to ref a game. I'm not going to make this decision because I might get shouted at.

I'd say referees not applying laws are 1 of the drivers of abuse. Let's not pretend it isn't. There is no reason that makes abuse okay but to pretend that poor performance or perceived poor performance doesn't generate some level of abuse is ludicrous.

No one is slating this young referee. No one is saying it's a red card regardless. We are actually saying apply the law. The law, can be stretched in this scenario, what is an obvious goal scoring opportunity at adults is not the same as at u14 when you apply the criteria.

Again, where the OP talks about wiping out, any leniency the player might be afforded is drastically reduced.

Neither of us where there so we don’t know what wipe out means. If keeper flew out studs showing and snapped attacker in 2, then yes get cards out and Ive never had a coach complain/abuse because I didn’t send a child off. No grassroots coach wants a kid sending off. you’re trying to trivialise the seriousness of the current situation at GR by constantly only saying shouted at, we both know it can get a lot worse than that. I know the laws but I’m never going to agree with you on this, as i think it’s irresponsible to tell a new young ref to ref exactly the same way as an experienced adult ref. In an ideal world they could, if any of them had mentors, which they don’t or representatives from the clubs at their games, which they don’t, then yes ref exactly to the law.

Agree with James - manager nowadays want their players "protected", doubly so at youth level. You'll get in far more hot water with the sidelines for letting the opponent boot their kids up in the air with no consequences than you will for making a perfectly defensible decision to punish the player who's being excessively forceful.

Match Control comes from getting decisions correct, in most cases even a player who's been sent off will eventually accept it if they know they deserve it. Wheras deliberately getting decisions wrong will annoy the team who lost out from that incorrect decision, and will signal to the other team that you're a soft touch who can be easily influenced if they shout loud enough. Worst of both worlds.

What you ideally want as a ref is for both sides to basically trust you to make the right decision regardless of what they shout - because then they'll stop bothering to try and influence you and will know that they're less likely to get away with poor challenges. Buckling to pressure is the exact thing that moves you away from that goal.

I’m not saying any of the comments are wrong but I’m just not sure people on here realise what young refs have to put up with and they won’t be there when that ref gets physically abused. I’ve never had a coach scream for a player to be sent off. I’m not talking about buckling to pressure or not giving a red card for a serious challenge. I just said in the OP (if it was for dogso and not for snapping attacker) that the red card would have achieved nothing but abuse for a young ref. I was just talking about him managing and protecting himself.

 

[JamesL]

Neither of us where there so we don’t know what wipe out means. If keeper flew out studs showing and snapped attacker in 2, then yes get cards out and Ive never had a coach complain/abuse because I didn’t send a child off. No grassroots coach wants a kid sending off. you’re trying to trivialise the seriousness of the current situation at GR by constantly only saying shouted at, we both know it can get a lot worse than that. I know the laws but I’m never going to agree with you on this, as i think it’s irresponsible to tell a new young ref to ref exactly the same way as an experienced adult ref. In an ideal world they could, if any of them had mentors, which they don’t or representatives from the clubs at their games, which they don’t, then yes ref exactly to the law.

I’m not saying any of the comments are wrong but I’m just not sure people on here realise what young refs have to put up with and they won’t be there when that ref gets physically abused. I’ve never had a coach scream for a player to be sent off. I’m not talking about buckling to pressure or not giving a red card for a serious challenge. I just said in the OP (if it was for dogso and not for snapping attacker) that the red card would have achieved nothing but abuse for a young ref. I was just talking about him managing and protecting himself.

Of course we don't because we don't referee grassroots and were never new referees ourselves...

What you are actually doing is creating blurred lines...which actually makes the job harder for a new referee.

Your advice is don't send off on case you suffer abuse. But you will get abuse for not doing the right thing, and arguably worse.

At what point does this blurred line apply to. What age? Minute or game, experience of refereeing? You haven't answered any of those questions and I suspect that is because you can't. The advice you are giving is conflicting, confusing, and plain wrong imo.

The laws provide for modifications that are allowed to be made and this just isn't one of them. We can apply the law in a way that exercises leniency but we should not ignore it under a false concept of potential abuse because that work a bothways.

Further to this, the advice could lead to worse abuse for another referee. Player commits dogso. Isn't sent off tis week. Therefore he now believes that he can do this with no repurcussion.
Next game he does it again. And is sent off by another referee. Referee 2 now gets abused for doing the right thing and I guarantee you the words last week's ref will be in there somewhere.

Where do we draw a line?

 

[GraemeS]

Neither of us where there so we don’t know what wipe out means. If keeper flew out studs showing and snapped attacker in 2, then yes get cards out and Ive never had a coach complain/abuse because I didn’t send a child off. No grassroots coach wants a kid sending off. you’re trying to trivialise the seriousness of the current situation at GR by constantly only saying shouted at, we both know it can get a lot worse than that. I know the laws but I’m never going to agree with you on this, as i think it’s irresponsible to tell a new young ref to ref exactly the same way as an experienced adult ref. In an ideal world they could, if any of them had mentors, which they don’t or representatives from the clubs at their games, which they don’t, then yes ref exactly to the law.

I’m not saying any of the comments are wrong but I’m just not sure people on here realise what young refs have to put up with and they won’t be there when that ref gets physically abused. I’ve never had a coach scream for a player to be sent off. I’m not talking about buckling to pressure or not giving a red card for a serious challenge. I just said in the OP (if it was for dogso and not for snapping attacker) that the red card would have achieved nothing but abuse for a young ref. I was just talking about him managing and protecting himself.

You've never had any shouts of "you've got to protect us ref" or similar? I get that routinely at adult level when player want their opponents booked/sent off, I can't imagine parents watching their kids play want less protection!

You're hired as a referee to do a job. Failure to do that job properly is literally the "reason" why players and fans abuse referees. Everything that's shouted, from "are you blind ref?" to "you're a cheating c*** ref" is a variation on the theme of "I think you've got that decision wrong ref".

Sometime the shouts will be based in truth, often they're incorrect with a biased eye. But it seems bizarre to me that your advice to reduce abuse is....to have the referee deliberately make more wrong decisions. A wrong decision is by definition something that will annoy a significant portion of the players and fans.

If you think making more incorrect decisions, winding up more of the people around you and simultaneously making yourself look like a soft touch who it is beneficial to yell at is going to help "protect yourself" then I don't know where to start. You're approaching this all wrong. I don't know what newspapers you've been reading, but grassroots assaults in youth football are still relatively rare. Prioritising "protecting yourself" above literally performing the job you've left the house to do is both pointless and self-defeating.

 

[RefRyanAus]

I have always been taught to apply the laws of the game as consistently as possible and in a way that advances the spirit and integrity of the game. In my (perhaps limited) experience young referees benefit greatly from the input of senior referees who give them confidence to referee with intent. Abuse is hard to avoid as a referee but continual skills development and confidence in our own decision making processes helps us to deal with and shake it off on most occasions. I don’t think young referees should be made afraid to make decisions because of the anticipatede response from coaches or spectators. Referee what you see, do the best you can and be kind to yourself when you inevitably make mistakes along the way. Red seems potentially reasonable and appropriate to me but I understand why you might have been reluctant in the moment. It’s a situation that might test many of us less experienced refs.