Swans v Mackems

[GraemeS]

Sorry, an unexpected ball blasted at pace can go absolutely anywhere, high, low, left, right, how possibly can a defender react so quick that he deliberately moves his hands towards the ball, as the law asks us to consider. You as a referee are expected to know that for sure that thats what was going to happen. I'm not getting your logic in this instance. I think this poorly wrote guidance note was aimed at the instance where a defender with his hands out like shovels makes himself bigger, obviously in that instance he has less chance of my sympathy,

What do we mean by "unexpected"? It's clear the defender was expecting a cross of some sort even if he didn't know exactly where it was going, so I think it's disingenuous to suggest that he was caught by surprise!

And while he's never going to be able to judge exactly where the ball is going, that's exactly why we're suggesting that "making yourself bigger" using your arms should be penalised.

 

[Sheffields Finest]

What do we mean by "unexpected"? It's clear the defender was expecting a cross of some sort even if he didn't know exactly where it was going, so I think it's disingenuous to suggest that he was caught by surprise!

And while he's never going to be able to judge exactly where the ball is going, that's exactly why we're suggesting that "making yourself bigger" using your arms should be penalised.

I accept he's expecting something coming his way, he's a defender, whats critical here is, no one, including the defender, the referee, or the attacker that shoots it knows where its going (for certain). So how do you take the leap of faith that just because he got arms on the ends of his shoulders that he's also using for balance he is 'deliberately' moving (did he get that chance???) his hand / arm towards a ball thats moving at pace (as the Law clearly says you must consider). He's not guilty of any charge!

This happens on my pitch he's getting a slap on the back from his fellow defenders for doing his job!

 

[GraemeS]

I accept he's expecting something coming his way, he's a defender, whats critical here is, no one, including the defender, the referee, or the attacker that shoots it knows where its going (for certain). So how do you take the leap of faith that just because he got arms on the ends of his shoulders that he's also using for balance he is 'deliberately' moving (did he get that chance???) his hand / arm towards a ball thats moving at pace (as the Law clearly says you must consider). He's not guilty of any charge!

This happens on my pitch he's getting a slap on the back from his fellow defenders for doing his job!

You've literally described a judgement call that the referee has made. It is entirely correct for a referee to decide that on the balance of probability, he thinks the defender has deliberately made himself bigger. And it's just as technically correct for him to decide that's a natural position.

Like it or not, that's a judgement referees have to make and in the situation as described, I (and many others on this thread) would have given this penalty. I know we've had a long discussion, but I think that's kind of what it boils down to.

 

[Paul March]

Have I missed a video, all I can see is a still. Without the context of the full incident you can't say for definite whether he was simply protecting himself, stretching to block, or his arm was in natural' motion.

 

[Mintyref]

I accept he's expecting something coming his way, he's a defender, whats critical here is, no one, including the defender, the referee, or the attacker that shoots it knows where its going (for certain). So how do you take the leap of faith that just because he got arms on the ends of his shoulders that he's also using for balance he is 'deliberately' moving (did he get that chance???) his hand / arm towards a ball thats moving at pace (as the Law clearly says you must consider). He's not guilty of any charge!

This happens on my pitch he's getting a slap on the back from his fellow defenders for doing his job!

Keep it up Bobby, they're weakening........

 

[McTavish]

I accept he's expecting something coming his way, he's a defender, whats critical here is, no one, including the defender, the referee, or the attacker that shoots it knows where its going (for certain). So how do you take the leap of faith that just because he got arms on the ends of his shoulders that he's also using for balance he is 'deliberately' moving (did he get that chance???) his hand / arm towards a ball thats moving at pace (as the Law clearly says you must consider). He's not guilty of any charge!

This happens on my pitch he's getting a slap on the back from his fellow defenders for doing his job!

Yes the referee must consider the movement of the arms but it is not necessary for the arm to move to the ball for a handball to be given; nor does the player need to know where the ball is going. Take the example of the player on the goal line with his arms stretched wide. If a close range shot is taken and hits his arm I think most referees (even you?) would give the PK but there is no movement of the hand to the ball, the shot was from close range so chance to move out of the way but the only reason his hands were where they were was in the hope of the ball hitting them and so it is a deliberate act - handball and PK.

In this specific instance why has the defender got his hands above his head? If the ref feels it is with the hope that the ball might hit his arm and prevent the cross then it is a PK; if the ref thinks it is just where his hands have got to because of the effort needed to jump and to maintain his balance then it is not a PK. Personally I think this one is very harsh but professional footballers know that they need to make every effort to keep their hands and arms out of the way or they run the risk of being penalised which is why you so often see defenders put their hands behind their backs when facing a winger.