A&H

Swans v Mackems

So, its too close, too fast, where the arms are don't necessarily matter (according to the Law) but because a defender has had a ball blasted against him you've took the leap of faith he's intentionally handled that ball..... On the balance of probability your on very dodgy ground.

The law clearly says you must consider all of the above, not just one of them and start guessing intent to deliberately handle!!!
 
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The law clearly says you must consider all of the above, not just one of them and start guessing intent to deliberately handle!!!

Ok, in this incident lets consider them...is the players arm in an unnatural position where upon he is making himself bigger deliberately to block the ball? Yes - Penalty no further consideration around speed or distance required.

Am I two feet away from a player with my hands by my side and the ball hits my hand - considerations my arm is in a natural position ok....distance two feet away no time to react or remove my hand...speed hit forcefully no time to react - No penalty.

However in the incident shown- arm is in unnatural position in a deliberate attempt to make themselves bigger ...suck it up buttercup.....penalty all day long.

If I was standing with my two hands in the air like a keeper and the ball hits them is that a freekick/penalty? If I run up the pitch my arms out like an aeroplane and I clothes line an opponent standing two feet away it's ok because that's how I run?
 
What he said

I just want John Terry to be retrospectively punished for 1001 handballs where he slid in with his hands up like Pete Schmeichel.
I had Terry in mind. Some great saves he got away with.

So, its too close, too fast, where the arms are don't necessarily matter (according to the Law) but because a defender has had a ball blasted against him you've took the leap of faith he's intentionally handled that ball..... On the balance of probability your on very dodgy ground.

The law clearly says you must consider all of the above, not just one of them and start guessing intent to deliberately handle!!!

A bit of logic needed here. Re "the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement" - why is this mentioned at all? If the only considerations are movement and distance, this clause has no function at all. It's a clumsy construction - no better in the German (usually good for precision) which translates as "touching the ball is not in itself an offence". It means nothing - except to imply that the position of the hand may be relevant even if it's ball to hand and close.
 
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Leap of faith in believing that making yourself bigger is a direct correlation to 'I want to deliberately handle the ball!'

You've ignored all the rest of the Law advice and jumped straight to that assumption!

I have arms, they hang from my shoulders, we use them for balance, please define an unnatural position.

Not having that this is a stick on pen! It's not!
 
When jumping to block a ball your arms raised in a way they shouldn't be unless deliberately trying to make yourself bigger. Please see picture in opening post for reference and perfect example!
 
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video:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36741673

"- Rizzoli’s decision to award a penalty to France in the semi-finals may have been technically correct – to the letter of the law – but wasn’t in line with the spirit of the game? - Pierluigi Collina, Hugh Dallas and Mark Batta are the technical experts. They immediately argued that it did concern a very unnatural position. Schweinsteiger’s hand should not have been there. That was a correctly awarded penalty. On the BBC, Rio Ferdinand – as well as Thierry Henry who knows all about hand balls – said that there couldn’t be any discussion, because the defender’s hand shouldn’t have been there." http://refereeingworld.blogspot.co.uk/2016_07_01_archive.html
http://refereeingworld.blogspot.co.uk/2016_07_01_archive.html
David Elleray is quoted as looking to get IFAB to introduce wording to cover this. I can't find an original quote but "Further rule changes are afoot, particularly in relation to handball, which could see wording introduced to differentiate between natural and unnatural body positions when the ball strikes a player’s arm." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...the-first-teams-to-play-under-footballs-rewr/

And here's your own, your very own, RA view:

"Whether the player uses their hands or arms to make themselves bigger to prevent the ball from going past them in either towards goal or towards the penalty area. this action is a deliberate attempt to handle the ball and to give the defending player an unfair advantage." https://the-ra.org/assets/Referee%20Magazine%20Volume%2023%20single.pdf (p.11)
 
Completely different situation to the Greizmann penalty, He was already in the position when it was blasted against him, he didn't deliberate handball anything..
Read the actual blooming law....... If he does a starfish jump in front of a striker then I agree with you, thats a deliberate act!!!

The following must be considered:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand).... None
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball) Definitely too close.. Unexpected, yes, his arm was already there!!
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement... Spot on, they know that now!

So in the opinion of this referee you lot are making it up as you go along!! :) Play on!!!! :smoke:
 
I'm with Dazzler on this, too close, too fast, arm in a natural position when jumping.......
 
All natural movement by a player's arms during running, jumping and leaping should negate this "unnatural" position. Every one uses their arms to assist with lift and hang time when jumping and leaping to head or block a ball. This is NOT an unnatural position.
 
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Players swing their arms to get lift, perfectly naturally! Spot on Mintman!! Never deliberate handball in the memory of man!!
 
You lot? The Referees Association? The technical director of IFAB?
As far as I am aware, only official circulars by the IFAB or wording that they actually include in the laws is definitive. Anything else is just someone's opinion and does not carry the weight of law, even if that person is the IFAB's technical director.

In any event, even David Elleray did not say that every time the arms are away from the body, it necessarily means that the handling was definitely deliberate - he said that, "The challenging decisions are if the defending player spreads their arms to make themselves bigger. If the ball hits the arm then the referee must decide whether this action was to deliberately block the ball ..." In other words, he is saying that whatever the position of the arms, there is still a decision to be made as to whether it was deliberate - or not. Which (as SF rightly points out) is totally in accord with the wording of the law when it tells us that "the position of the hand does not necessarily mean there is an infringement."

I think that all this talk about position of the arms, whether it is a natural or unnatural position, "making oneself bigger" etc, only serves to divert attention away from the main (and in one very real sense, the only) consideration - has the player made a conscious decision to deliberately handle the ball?

Sometimes I think it almost seems as if this question of natural/unnatural position is being used as the sole means of deciding, instead of it only being a contributory factor (and one that the laws tell us, is not necessarily definitive). If the only considerations are whether the arm position was unnatural (although that isn't necessarily a straightforward decision) or if the player has "made himself bigger" then we don't have to make the more challenging decision of whether it was truly the "deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm."

For me, the question is not just whether the player has his arms in a particular position but whether he has intentionally moved them there as part of a deliberate decision to make contact with the ball. And does that not require some possibility of judging what the path of the ball was going (or likely) to be? If, as the laws again mention, the ball was unexpected and the player did not have the time, space or opportunity to move his hands either into or out of the way of the ball, can that truly be classed as deliberate?

In the incident we are discussing, I don't see how the player could possibly have known where the ball was going to go (the opponent could, for instance have hit it along the ground rather than in the air) and he certainly didn't have time, after it was struck, to move his arms out of the way even if had seen the ball coming which, given his body position, it is very possible that he didn't.

Anyway, as has already been mentioned, the IFAB is currently considering changes to the law on handling offences including (among other things) an attempt to clarify the whole question of arm position so it will be very interesting to see what they come up with.
 
All,

I haven't seen this incident but in an effort to to tidy up some frustrations ....

A player making their frame bigger when attempting to block a shot/pass etc and the ball strikes the arm IS an infringement if we deem the arm to be in an unnatural position. As handed down by the SFA to all senior listed officials.
 
What I don't get is how any ref can think that "making yourself bigger" by spreading your arms wide is not deliberate handball. You'd have to say that spreading your arms wide is deliberate, but it's a pure accident if the ball then hits the hand. That's a bit like the non-violent Quaker who finds his wife in bed with another man, gets a gun, points it at the man and says, "Friend, I mean thee no harm, but thou art standing where I am about to shoot".
 
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For me, the question is not just whether the player has his arms in a particular position but whether he has intentionally moved them there as part of a deliberate decision to make contact with the ball. And does that not require some possibility of judging what the path of the ball was going (or likely) to be? If, as the laws again mention, the ball was unexpected and the player did not have the time, space or opportunity to move his hands either into or out of the way of the ball, can that truly be classed as deliberate?

In the incident we are discussing, I don't see how the player could possibly have known where the ball was going to go (the opponent could, for instance have hit it along the ground rather than in the air) and he certainly didn't have time, after it was struck, to move his arms out of the way even if had seen the ball coming which, given his body position, it is very possible that he didn't.

"If the ball was unexpected" is a big if here. This debate seems to hang on that. My take is it is very much expected, hence the player using his arms to increase his chance of blocking the ball with them.

A well positioned referee, used to top flight football, should have better ability to judge the speed of the ball, and the speed of the defender's movements... perhaps better than we can from video.

Of course if the player is actually trying to move his hands our of the way, then of course the handball cannot be deliberate.

(If you ask a player, every one of them is trying to move their hand out of the way!)
 
Sorry, an unexpected ball blasted at pace can go absolutely anywhere, high, low, left, right, how possibly can a defender react so quick that he deliberately moves his hands towards the ball, as the law asks us to consider. You as a referee are expected to know that for sure that thats what was going to happen. I'm not getting your logic in this instance. I think this poorly wrote guidance note was aimed at the instance where a defender with his hands out like shovels makes himself bigger, obviously in that instance he has less chance of my sympathy,
 
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Not sure the phrase unnatural is particularly helpful. Players can't simply detach them or fold them away when it suits. Arms are used for balance and counterbalance. I see our job, in these circumstances, as deciding whether we could have reasonably expected the player to have got his arms/hands out of the way.

The movement of arm/hand towards the ball is an altogether different story
 
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