Who agrees that the penalty for handball is justified, it's very close in, it's hit at speed, his arm was already there. Deliberate handball, really?
Swans v Mackems
- Thread starter Sheffields Finest
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Peter Grove
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If we can believe David Moyes - and it didn't strike me as the kind of thing he would just make up - the AR told him repeatedly that it was given because the defender was 15 yards away (presumably meaning that therefore it didn't qualify as an "unexpected ball"). If that was truly why it was decided it could be classed as deliberate then Moyes may have some justification to feel aggrieved.
Alex, you've contradicted yourself, if the player may or not be doing something intentionally then how are we supposed to be 100% sure that he's guilty of deliberate HB. Therefore by process if you you or him aren't 100% then how can you give it 'every time'. Where does it say that you can't jump up with your arms raised, at that pace, no reaction time, it's also hit him behind him arm so harsh at the very least I hope you agree.
Over the years this rule has been chewed on by many committees and it seems to me that the recent versions are just that!
A Freethinker
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@Sheffields Finest would have to agree with Alex there is no need for an arm to be up there unless you are 'intentionally' making yourself bigger, hence deliberate action and handball.
So at that speed he's had time to take evasive action or make himself bigger, ( or just balanced) or has it just been blasted at him. Sorry, if that's deliberate at that speed he's got the reflexes of a cat... from further out I would err more with the handball consensus but not so close and fast.
There's a difference between "deliberately making a block with an arm" and "deliberately making yourself bigger, increasing the odds that you will block with an arm by chance". I'm sure we'd all agree that the first option is handball and I'm sure we'd also agree that's not what's happened in this incident.
The suggestion others have made on this thread that option 2 is what's happened here. So that's what needs discussing here I think, the idea that he's deliberately used his hand is not relevant.
A Freethinker
RefChat Addict
@Sheffields Finest is that a natural position? Surely if you are jumping to block the shoot not wishing to make yourself bigger you pull your elbow in tight to your body and turning your shoulder, when I jumped like that as a player, with my elbow away from my body I only ever did it to make myself bigger and therefore unnatural positioning?
Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm.
Handling the ball
The following must be considered:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand).... No movement whatsoever!
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball) Definitely too close.. Unexpected, yes, his arm was already there!!
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement... Spot on, they know that now!
• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) N/A
So on ALL counts, Not guilty, the defence rests its case.....
Handling the ball
The following must be considered:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand).... No movement whatsoever!
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball) Definitely too close.. Unexpected, yes, his arm was already there!!
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement... Spot on, they know that now!
• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) N/A
So on ALL counts, Not guilty, the defence rests its case.....
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
...unless the player has made himself big in a deliberate act to make contact with the ball, at which point... well, not for the first time...
Part of defending is to make yourself big to stop the ball going in the net, thats your job, so unless its a deliberate action of his Hand going towards the ball how possibly can that be deliberate handball action to handle! Its clearly the opposite way as its being blasted against him from 2 yards! Remember what the Law states...the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement.
"the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement..."
Nor does it mean there isn't.
In fact, that's one of the more useless statements in the laws.
Does it mean that the whole concept of "hands in an unnatural position" is a dead letter and players are free to waltz round the penalty area with their arms spread, with impunity?
Unless IFAB come out and say the following is no longer the law, it still is for me:
"Referees look at two specifics - did the hand or arm go towards the ball or in a manner which would block the ball, or is the hand in a position where it would not normally be?" Elleray told BBC Sport. "The challenging decisions are if the defending player spreads their arms to make themselves bigger. If the ball hits the arm then the referee must decide whether this action was to deliberately block the ball or whether the player has raised their arms to protect themselves - especially if the ball is hit at speed."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/rules_and_equipment/4524354.stm
http://www.seriousgoalkeeping.net/Tactics/images/Tutorial13.jpg
Nor does it mean there isn't.
In fact, that's one of the more useless statements in the laws.
Does it mean that the whole concept of "hands in an unnatural position" is a dead letter and players are free to waltz round the penalty area with their arms spread, with impunity?
Unless IFAB come out and say the following is no longer the law, it still is for me:
"Referees look at two specifics - did the hand or arm go towards the ball or in a manner which would block the ball, or is the hand in a position where it would not normally be?" Elleray told BBC Sport. "The challenging decisions are if the defending player spreads their arms to make themselves bigger. If the ball hits the arm then the referee must decide whether this action was to deliberately block the ball or whether the player has raised their arms to protect themselves - especially if the ball is hit at speed."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/rules_and_equipment/4524354.stm
You mean like this?
http://www.seriousgoalkeeping.net/Tactics/images/Tutorial13.jpg
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So if we agree the argument is based on three elements, only one of which you may have a point (33.333%)
Is it very close.... very... I Win!!
Was it very fast....very... I Win!!
Was his arm in an unnatural position (whatever that means)?? Not really because if the first two had been different then he may have had the chance to do something about it...
Crap Law anyway!! its the only Law where we have to judge Intent apparently!!! (according to G Poll)
Is it very close.... very... I Win!!
Was it very fast....very... I Win!!
Was his arm in an unnatural position (whatever that means)?? Not really because if the first two had been different then he may have had the chance to do something about it...
Crap Law anyway!! its the only Law where we have to judge Intent apparently!!! (according to G Poll)
It's not a cumulative exercise. If the arms are in an unnatural position - i.e. intentionally there in order, as you put it, to "make yourself big" - then the distance and speed are of no concern at all. Attackers may sometimes deliberately play the ball against a hand in the hope of getting a penalty; in many cases the hand will not be flush against the body, and the only intent is on the part of the attacker. But if your defender has spread his arms or lifted them up to "make himself big" then it's his intention to prevent a cross by using his hand and arm, and if that's what happens, that's deliberate handling.
It's not the only time we judge intent. Violent conduct must be intentional - otherwise, as Mr Clattenburg would say, it's merely a coming together. Delaying the restart usually requires intent:
It's not the only time we judge intent. Violent conduct must be intentional - otherwise, as Mr Clattenburg would say, it's merely a coming together. Delaying the restart usually requires intent:
- kicking or carrying the ball away, or provoking a confrontation by deliberately touching the ball after the referee has stopped play (how do you know what's accidental or deliberate without judging intent?)
- taking a free kick from the wrong position to force a retake (how do you judge whether forcing a retake was the intention?)
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
What he said
I just want John Terry to be retrospectively punished for 1001 handballs where he slid in with his hands up like Pete Schmeicel.
I just want John Terry to be retrospectively punished for 1001 handballs where he slid in with his hands up like Pete Schmeicel.