Scott Arfield Red Card
- Thread starter AirdrieRef
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Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
One thing I dont feel you can ever do is paint by numbers on a mass con
You do whats needed
Like without me being rude, your instructing your AR to leave the tech areas
And not to be proactive by defusing something even if they can
You cant give black and white instructions on a mass con, its too variable a senario to prepare for
Where on the park?
How many involved?
Close to benches?
Involving fans?
How close is the ref?
Maybe even, who is involved.
There is no way you can realistically cover what to do in a mass con. The mass con will dictate who does what
Disagree again, on both counts. Ref was in the middle of things - if it had kicked off (and nothing he did 100% guaranteed that it wouldn't), he's in a rubbish position to work out what's going on, and any AR who's stuck on the sideline is also not in a credible position to advise on further sanctions.
I think you're really struggling to separate actions from results here. He got lucky and so it looks like strong refereeing. But he's only one man and he can only (at a push) hold two people apart. That leaves 20 others, any of who could have tried to kick off for any one of a hundred reasons. And if it does, it looks like stupid refereeing because he's in a useless position - and his AR looks useless for not taking a better position to help. We need to ignore the result and ask if we really really think he did the right thing here, because I'm far from convinced.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Could have, would have, might have, might not have, all defeatist attitudes and the get out clause of a not only a weak referee, but a weak person.
He does this kind of action frequently, and has done since the day he picked up the whistle
he once escorted numerous players off the pitch at Hampden at a cup final, from both sides, when fans were on to attack them
its not luck, its judgement and experience.
AR can see the same from 40 yards here as he can from 20.
And there is nowhere else I would have wanted this ref to be, than in the middle of things. And, I know he would not have had it any other way either
if you wish to stand by and watch a battle, that's understandable. Some folk though do have a positive confident can do attitude and will play their part in handing it. i guess its just how you are as a person that counts.
I do recall the underground bombers few years back, where able to run up the down escalator and folk in London stood by to let them pass
Some guy produced a petrol bomb at Glasgow airport and was promptly set up by by standers....
Now, which camp would you be in and given it will be the former, how on earth would you be able to look at yourself in the mirror.
i think it was the renowned philosopher Batman who said only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' , or words to that effect.
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In sport at least, some participants have the ability to make their own luck. I'm sure this is a case in point. Madden's actions might not work for you or I, but that's because he has the ability and experience to make it work. We should just take what we can from the clip to add to our toolbox, but copying all aspects probably wouldn't be a great idea
Peter Grove
RefChat Addict
Call me crazy, but perhaps we could also look to the advice in the actual Laws of the Game document:
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Peter Grove
RefChat Addict
Yes, which was exactly the point I was trying to make. The LotG allow for, but do not require that the AR assist - so taking too extreme a position at either end of the spectrum is not what the Laws call for.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Its very likely in this incident by use of the comms, the referee has told the AR to stay. It would be unfair to be critical of the AR in this case.
If that's the case (and I kind of doubt it), then it goes down as another negative against the referee. If he's in the middle of jumping on the GK's back to try and stop a fight breaking out, his judgement is seriously flawed if he doesn't even consider the possibility he might need help at that point!
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
You can remove your doubt.
Prob best you sum this up as not what you would do
for every one of you, please respect those who consider his actions as outstanding.
As prev posted by others, to do this takes experience, confidence, judgment, ability and an overall feeling for the game. Clearly one or all of those is lacking in you (not you personally but your version of events)
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Wow, that's an incredible density of very thinly veiled insults, congratulations on some top class snide. I've been nothing but respectful and fair up to this point, while you've struggled to get over the fact that you clearly have a pre-set opinion about his refereeing and react to any criticism of him with attacks. At least try to pretend that you're looking at this objectively before criticising what you imagine I do.
The accepted way to deal with a mass con is to step off, get a good angle, use your AR's to get even more angles and deal with the sanctions as you see them. And the very obvious reason why every new ref is given this advice is that if 22 people choose to punch lumps out of each other, there's nothing that 3 guys, a whistle and some flags can do to stop them.
That advice applies right the way up this pyramid - including in this very clip here. I don't doubt the GK could have shrugged the ref off if he wanted to. But even if we accept that the ref could stop the GK throwing any punches, that still leaves 21 other people he is now unable to pay any attention to. Having the hubris to think that you're so imposing that grabbing one player will control that entire situation and reduce the chance of a fight to 0 is unrealistic.
If you're going to suggest he did correctly to deviate from that advice, you have to justify why. If you're saying he was so confident that he had control that he told his AR to deviate from standard procedure as well, that's another thing that needs justifying. And I don't mean pointing at it and going "look, it calmed down", I mean pointing at it and going "this is how he made 100% sure it calmed down", which I don't think he did. As I said before, he took a risk and got lucky - that's not exactly the most damming criticism in the world, but it does mean we probably shouldn't be pointing new referees at this an example of what to do.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
We are all made differently. I justify that he was correct to do as he did given the results of his actions. Cant really justify it any more than that
Could a submarine have floated up the Forth and lodged itself in the goal mouth as he was doing his stuff. Yes
Did it? NO
There was no risk or luck. Judgement.
If you think you could have handled this better, then good luck with that
I just see it as excellent refereeing, albeit somewhat unconventional
Interesting that you managed to read that into my post, because I very clearly never said that. Earlier in the thread I specifically praise the quick card and the shielding of the sent off player in the goal - I just think that the advice after that would be to back off and observe, which is what I would hopefully have tried to do in a similar situation.
Exactly, you can't justify it other than looking at the result. But unless that result is guaranteed, this is a bad move. And grabbing one player out of 22 doesn't guarantee that result.
Outside of your blinkered view about how amazing this ref is, I don't understand how this is proving difficult to grasp. If a fight kicks off, I'm sure we'd all agree that hanging round the neck of a GK in the middle of the fight is a terrible position? And that his decision to send the AR away would also have then looked terrible as well? Can we at least agree on that point?
We then have to ask if his actions would always stop the fight from kicking off. And here's where I accept opinion comes in - my opinion is that the vast majority of the time, even with the ref round the GK's neck, there's a very good chance that a player somewhere else shoves someone causing more players to pile in, or that someone throws a cheeky punch/kick in. And if that happens, we're back to the situation in the previous paragraph - a ref stuck in the middle of a brawl with an AR 50 yards away has no view and no chance of giving the correct sanctions after.
one
RefChat Addict
It could have easily been a case of sh!t hitting the fan in the flashpoint. But it didn't. You could put it down to good refereeing. I put it down to luck. I have seen too many flashpoint getting out of control and can confidently say something like this is never predictable and ref and ARs have to be as prepared and proactive as they can.
One can get away with "Stay out of it. I got this", or "the ref has this, I don't need to get there" on something like this a couple of times but it will eventually catch you offguard.
A good analogy is if a referee calls a correct penalty from the centre circle I don't see it as amazing foul recognition, I see it as getting away with poor positioning.
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Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
And if the coin landed the other way the away team would have kicked into the gale first half
Anyone wants to stand by in a mass con, fine
I will be wading in where apt
And if that was me in the net, I would dare my AR to come on.
Also, looking back, if am referring to Graeme, I could have said pages ago it was horrendous officiating and true to form you would have praised it. It really does seem at times you and me officiate a different sport. You happy with your diagnosis, fine, rest assured am orgasmic with mine.
Anyone wants to stand by in a mass con, fine
I will be wading in where apt
And if that was me in the net, I would dare my AR to come on.
Also, looking back, if am referring to Graeme, I could have said pages ago it was horrendous officiating and true to form you would have praised it. It really does seem at times you and me officiate a different sport. You happy with your diagnosis, fine, rest assured am orgasmic with mine.
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I bow to your experience, but there's been some refs in Scotland who are very adept in these situations. Some of the derby games would have the southern softies running for cover. I just don't detect luck involved in this instance, because a minority of refs in the SPL have the skills to get a good outcome from these flashpoints