In or Out?

[bester]

Those things would remain in the UK as we introduced most of them before the EU!
The only thing that may change is anti-discrimination as we won't be forced to have a policy that favours EU residents over the rest of the world.

 

[Kes]

We also never had a vote NOT to join. That's meaningless logic.

Erm.... yes we have, it's on the 23rd.

The point, as you well know, is that we, the people weren't consulted on whether or not we became governed by the EU. Our national government signed us up to it. Your logic is completely flawed.

The fact is Graeme, like most "remainiacs" you miss the point that the EU is all about power. The politicians are all about power. Unelected, unremovable power, influenced and controlled by big business corporations. We have the choice to (indirectly) change the ones who rule us in the UK every 4 years. The unelected invisible commissioners who make the rules and pass the EU laws (by which we all have to abide) can't be removed (except by the EU) and can't be challenged. It's effectively a dictatorship and has only just begun "politically" which is why the young can't see any problem with it since it hasn't really had too much effect on us so far. Only because it's still in it's infancy though.

The whole thing will steamroller after the 23rd. Most of the daft young voting "remain" will I'll wager, regret their complacency in around 10 years time. Too late then.

 

[HertsFinest]

No, does that mean I don't count?

In your mind, what laws have they dictated to us? The remain campaign quotes laws enforcing the existence of minimum wages, mandatory maternity leave, mandatory paid holiday and a lot of other anti-discrimination laws. I'm interested to know what you think the bad things are that are being imposed on us to counter that?

Of course your opinion counts, but wages have been compressed and market share taken from those trades by the policy of the EU. It's not possible to have two countries, one where the average monthly wage is £2300 a month and one where it's £350 a month working as one. It dampens the richer countries tradesmens income. That's why I ask as if you don't work in that sector you can't necessarily see the strains the EU creates.

In terms of laws that negatively impact the UK:

• Fishing rights for French boats in our waters but not vice Versa
• Quotas on small fish having to be chucked back dead rather than eaten
• Banning of religious clothing/jewellery in the workplace (announced today)
• Imposition of quotas for taking refugees
• Common agricultural policy (inflating food prices)
• Commitment to bailing out failing economies that have little to no bearing on life in this country
• Legislation around fruit and vegetables meaning products that aren't within ranges cannot be sold thus wasting food
• Free movement of labour including those with criminal records
• Blanket VAT charges for digital products sold in the EU despite being VAT exempt in the UK - VAT collected by the EU
• VAT on feminine hygeine products
• Meat no longer needs to state country of origin but can merely state "EU meat"
• Illegality around arranging our own trade deals with foreign markets

I'm sure there's more, perhaps @RegalRef @Kes et al can add to it

But ignorant of laws per se, there are many more reasons the EU negatively impacts our country:

• Uncapped immigration from a pool of 500m people; many of whom have vastly different salaries, lifestyles and cultures
• The soon to be advent of visa free travel from turkey, a country that has questionable links to Syria and IS as well as a totalitarian reigeme that is both undemocratic and in breach of nearly all EU laws around democracy and human rights
• Compression of wages from unskilled migration
• Lack of border checks for criminals coming from abroad
• The ability to gain citizenship in just 3 years from some EU countries eg Belguim from non EU countries allowing unskilled migrants from outside the EU to come to the UK permanently without checks
• The Eurozone fallacy
• Merging of differing markets such as Greece/Spain/Portugal/Italy being in the same boat as the UK France and Germany
• Child benefit being claimed in two countries
• Strain on infrastructure
• Wage compression from cheap labour
• Sovereignty
• Lack of control over spending
• Minority in EU parliament so cannot overturn laws/policies that are detriment to the UK
• Cost of membership
• Not allowed to negotiate our own trade deals
• TTIP
• Cap on steel import tax imposed by the EU resulting in dumping from China. See the rate the US charges and their growing steel industry as a result
• Inclusion of more poor, unskilled countries that offer no positive influence to us in the UK

I agree there are benefits to being a member too however to suggest that if we leave, Kim Jong will be flown over and all our rights stripped away is frankly absurd

We will STILL be a member of the human rights court if we leave. We can still be a member of a free trade group if we leave. We will still have employment rights if we leave and green laws around emissions and energy.

To suggest we would lose those rights upon leaving is ridiculous. We had them before the EU and we shall have them after.

 

[GraemeS]

Erm.... yes we have, it's on the 23rd.

The point, as you well know, is that we, the people weren't consulted on whether or not we became governed by the EU. Our national government signed us up to it. Your logic is completely flawed.

The fact is Graeme, like most "remainiacs" you miss the point that the EU is all about power. The politicians are all about power. Unelected, unremovable power, influenced and controlled by big business corporations. We have the choice to (indirectly) change the ones who rule us in the UK every 4 years. The unelected invisible commissioners who make the rules and pass the EU laws (by which we all have to abide) can't be removed (except by the EU) and can't be challenged. It's effectively a dictatorship and has only just begun "politically" which is why the young can't see any problem with it since it hasn't really had too much effect on us so far. Only because it's still in it's infancy though.

The whole thing will steamroller after the 23rd. Most of the daft young voting "remain" will I'll wager, regret their complacency in around 10 years time. Too late then.

There's a reason I used the past tense - I'm fully aware of what the vote that's going on in the future entails!

I'm far from a "Remainiac" (a term that's unlikely to endear you to anyone by the way) and I know I'm underinformed, but the "leave" campaign does not feel thought through to me. As I said before, the leave campaign has the extra burden to me of needing to explain how the UK works in a post-EU world - and I'm far from convinced that we're prepared for it.

Leaving the EU WILL drop us out of almost all current trade agreements, both with other EU states and other economies such as the US and China. Unless the leave campaign can convince me we're prepared for that, there is a 0% chance of me voting leave, regardless of any other issues.

 

[Kes]

All I'll say is:

If the vote was a vote to join the EU, and you were told that foreign labour would be given priority over local skilled men, over 50% of your laws would be made by the EU, that you would have to give up your exclusion zone around your own coast to allow other EU countries to fish in your waters, that there would be a common agriculture policy that would cripple your farming industry and that if any of your heavy industries were in trouble - the government wouldn't be permitted to help.
If you were told that they plan to make a European Army, and that you would have to have an open border policy to allow circa 500 million Europeans to come and work and live here if they wanted to and finally, that it would cost you a gross payment of around 59 million pounds per day for the privilege.....

How would you then vote?

 

[lincs22]

We didn't vote to join did we? (there's a clue in there to what it's all about )
So why should we vote to remain?

Youngsters - we voted to join as back in 1973 (and as a consequence VAT was introduced) and confirmed it in 1976. What history do you get taught at school...

We also never had a vote NOT to join. That's meaningless logic.

 

[Charlie Jones]

thanks @lincs22 ... I was sure there was a vote! lol

to be fair ... the 'talk' of a EU Army, is just that ... talk. it wouldn't ever happen.

also, £59m per day? and how did you come to this figure may I ask?

 

[Kes]

Leaving the EU WILL drop us out of almost all current trade agreements, both with other EU states and other economies such as the US and China.

Really? What, like Norway and Switzerland?
(Do you have proof of that by the way?)

Read your post again Graeme - a bit contradictory there mate. You claim to be "far from a Remainiac" yet then go on to state "there is 0% chance of me voting to leave".

You seem a tad confused.

Incidentally, I didn't invent the term "Remainiac" - it's being bandied around on various internet sites. Nor am I hoping to endear people to me...

 

[Kes]

Youngsters - we voted to join as back in 1973 (and as a consequence VAT was introduced) and confirmed it in 1976. What history do you get taught at school...

I didn't include the really ancient ones in my post.

The majority of us on here weren't ever consulted on membership by Ted Heath and his government.

I left school in 1983 mate, so can't really remember exactly what history I was taught......

 

[Charlie Jones]

you realise that Norway and Switzerland are a different fish to us? we have been with the EU for 40 years now ... Norway and Swiss haven't ... so we cannot look at them like a big older brother and follow their lead ...

also, the swizz and Norway have to abide by EU Laws to trade in the single market and trade within the EU - so all of these limited trading etc would still be enforced in the EU

also ... the cost of our membership is more like £23m a day ... which equates to something like 35p per person, per day ... now taking into account the new 'free tariff' coming into force across Europe when you go aborad ... im sure you spend a lot more on phone bills than 35 per day? its £127.75 a year per person approx. considering how much a month we all pay in taxes, fuel, take aways, cigarettes, booze etc etc - it all of a sudden becomes that bit more affordable?

 

[Kes]

thanks @lincs22 ... I was sure there was a vote! lol

to be fair ... the 'talk' of a EU Army, is just that ... talk. it wouldn't ever happen.

also, £59m per day? and how did you come to this figure may I ask?

You're misinformed Charlie - it's already begun. Not that the government would want you to know.... Why do you suppose the government is reducing the size of the Armed Forces year after year. Britain has a population of circa 70 million people yet The British Army couldn't fill Wembley stadium. Go figure.....

The 59 is a typo - sorry It should read 55. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...w-much-does-Britain-pay-to-the-EU-budget.html

 

[Kes]

you realise that Norway and Switzerland are a different fish to us? we have been with the EU for 40 years now ... Norway and Swiss haven't ... so we cannot look at them like a big older brother and follow their lead ...

also, the swizz and Norway have to abide by EU Laws to trade in the single market and trade within the EU - so all of these limited trading etc would still be enforced in the EU

also ... the cost of our membership is more like £23m a day ... which equates to something like 35p per person, per day ... now taking into account the new 'free tariff' coming into force across Europe when you go aborad ... im sure you spend a lot more on phone bills than 35 per day? its £127.75 a year per person approx. considering how much a month we all pay in taxes, fuel, take aways, cigarettes, booze etc etc - it all of a sudden becomes that bit more affordable?

You're focussing on nothing but individual and collective cost mate.

What about the surrender of power, of sovereignity and the creation of an all-powerful immovable governing superstate?

Do you really think it's good to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats who can't be sacked and who are answerable and accountable to noone but themselves? Seriously?

 

[Charlie Jones]

wow.

a link from the telegraph ... anything you say from here on in @Kes is now invalid

 

[Charlie Jones]

You're focussing on nothing but individual and collective cost mate.

What about the surrender of power, of sovereignity and the creation of an all-powerful immovable governing superstate?

Star Wars mate ... look how much fight the rebel have to put up with ...

im with the Dark Side mate, better to be blonde and blue eyed don't you think?

 

[HertsFinest]

Youngsters - we voted to join as back in 1973 (and as a consequence VAT was introduced) and confirmed it in 1976. What history do you get taught at school...

No we didn't vote to join! We had a referendum on remaining in the 70's, we never had one to join. We joined in 73 and had a referendum in 75. That means we had 2 years of enforced membership before we had the option of overturning it

 

[Kes]

wow.

a link from the telegraph ... anything you say from here on in @Kes is now invalid

Better than one from the mail or The Guardian Charlie.

Where's your info coming from?

Like most youngsters, it seems that cheap fags, flights and travel perks are more important to you that the future of our nation. Good luck with that mate. I'm 50, and thankfully I'll be either dead or senile before the full horror of what you guys voted for finally hits home.....

 

[Kes]

It seems the governement are desperate to garner the vote they want....

 

[GraemeS]

Really? What, like Norway and Switzerland?
(Do you have proof of that by the way?)

Read your post again Graeme - a bit contradictory there mate. You claim to be "far from a Remainiac" yet then go on to state "there is 0% chance of me voting to leave".

You seem a tad confused.

Incidentally, I didn't invent the term "Remainiac" - it's being bandied around on various internet sites. Nor am I hoping to endear people to me...

Well of course it looks that way if you selectively quote me to remove the rest of the sentence, including the word "if"

Norway and Switzerland have had years to gradually set up their own separate trade agreements; we would be starting from scratch. And I don't have proof, but it is a serious concern for me - hence why I personally would need the leave campaign to provide assurances of why that would not be the case.

I don't know loads on the issue, I'm not campaigning - but I posted my thoughts on this thread and my reasons why at this moment in time, I'm voting remain. Wasn't expecting a major debate on it to be honest...

 

[Kes]

Well of course it looks that way if you selectively quote me to remove the rest of the sentence, including the word "if"

Norway and Switzerland have had years to gradually set up their own separate trade agreements; we would be starting from scratch. And I don't have proof, but it is a serious concern for me - hence why I personally would need the leave campaign to provide assurances of why that would not be the case.

I don't know loads on the issue, I'm not campaigning - but I posted my thoughts on this thread and my reasons why at this moment in time, I'm voting remain. Wasn't expecting a major debate on it to be honest...

We wouldn't be starting up anything from scratch. The infrastructure is already there.

Anyway, like I said, the vote isn't about trade or money. They'll always be there. The vote is about freedom from what will be nothing more than a dictatorship. That's about it.

 

[xPositor]

Norway and Switzerland have had years to gradually set up their own separate trade agreements; we would be starting from scratch. And I don't have proof, but it is a serious concern for me - hence why I personally would need the leave campaign to provide assurances of why that would not be the case.

If we vote to exit on the 23rd, that doesn't mean that bang, we're out. There is then a timescale within which we would have to formally notify the EU and trigger the process by which we leave - that can be up to two years from the official start of the process. We also have the right to stop that process and remain in at any point within those two years. That's a lot of time - maybe not enough, but a good start - to ensuring treaties are put in place. And remember, we wouldn't be formulating those treaties from scratch - a lot of them could be mirrored from existing treaties, thus accelerating the process.

Oh, and @Charlie Jones - if we vote to leave than Cameron will not remain as PM - his position would be untenable and he would have to go.