The Ref Stop

In or Out?

Should the UK remain in, or leave, the European Union

  • Remain

  • Leave

  • Undecided

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I said my piece very early on in this discussion, but there seems to be an awful lot of misinformation in this thread. I will be voting to remain, which I guess makes me a "remainiac" and part of the "daft youth" @Kes? :rolleyes:

Leaving the EU would be a massive jump into the unknown, and the leave campaign has done nothing to convince me that we, as a nation, are ready to take that step. Both sides have taken to scaremongering instead of presenting facts; if we stay we'll be overrun by immigrants, if we leave we'll be walking into a recession and WW3. Absolute nonsense.

I'm really not sure where this idea of a dictatorship comes from? The EU has NO POWER to apply its laws to the UK; any law MUST be debated in parliament and voted for or against, before an enabling act is passed to enshrine it into British law. Yes, the majority of EU laws become part of our law, but only after a democratic process. MPs would not vote for something that fundamentally damaged the UK.

As for immigration and the freedom of movement, those are both reciprocal rights under which thousands of Brits move to the continent every single year. The fact is that we control our own borders, immigration issues stem from inaction by our government rather than the so called "uncapped" immigration that the EU brings. If you think that would change by voting to leave on 23rd June, then you're sadly mistaken.

I'm not somebody who is unwilling to listen to other viewpoints, and I certainly don't think that leaving would be the unmitigated disaster that many are claiming it would be, but I genuinely think that we are better off in the EU. By all means vote to leave, but please take the time to get informed rather than base that decision on the misinformation and lies in the media and in both campaigns (that isn't aimed at anybody here by the way).
 
The Ref Stop
Matthew said:
I'm really not sure where this idea of a dictatorship comes from? The EU has NO POWER to apply its laws to the UK; any law MUST be debated in parliament and voted for or against, before an enabling act is passed to enshrine it into British law. Yes, the majority of EU laws become part of our law, but only after a democratic process. MPs would not vote for something that fundamentally damaged the UK.

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Not true. EU statute is that EU law takes presidency over national law so if it's not in British law but is in EU law then EU wins unfortunately
 
Matthew said:
I'm really not sure where this idea of a dictatorship comes from? The EU has NO POWER to apply its laws to the UK; any law MUST be debated in parliament and voted for or against, before an enabling act is passed to enshrine it into British law. Yes, the majority of EU laws become part of our law, but only after a democratic process. MPs would not vote for something that fundamentally damaged the UK.
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The politicians are all feeding from the same trough Matthew. That's why the majority of EU laws become our own. That's not democracy.
So, you'd say that the EU fishing legislation didn't damage the UK fishing industry any then? :rolleyes:
The idea of a dictatorship comes, as I sure you know anyway, from the notion of dozens of power-wielding unelected Eurocrats who can't be challenged or removed, presiding over and passing legislation which their chums in state politics will endorse (you just said it yourself).

You're either being deliberately obtuse or proving my "young and daft" assertion. ;)

Oh, and nobody has mentioned immigration so far mate - just you. ;) :)
 
I think the difficult thing in this debate from either point of view is that both sides have vastly exaggerated their points to huge extremes, leaving the general public rightly suspicious of everything that's said by everybody.

If we vote to leave on the 23rd, we won't be out on the 24th. It is also not only to our benefit that trade agreements are put in place quickly, but to the benefit of oft her countries. We are net importers after all.

Their are a number of key reasons I'll be voting leave -
1. We should be creating specific UK laws to deal with UK issues, tailored to the UK needs
2. The huge amounts of waste encouraged by the EU (money, resources, food, manpower etc) that is actively promoted by the EU is of great concern
3. The membership cost is completely ridiculous for little or no benefit
4. EU courts should not hold higher authority in the UK than our own
5. The buck stops with us - whey should a body of other countries decide what's best for us when they have their own issues.

Sorry but I just don't get at all what the EU does for me on a daily basis.

How is a committee creating 'one size fits all' laws and rulings looking after the interests of 500 million people at once?

And why should I give a flying fuçk how bent the bananas are, the cucumbers are, what wattage my lightbulbs are or what the maximum wattage on my vacuum cleaner is? Yet all these things are decided for me?
 
Kes said:
The politicians are all feeding from the same trough Matthew. That's why the majority of EU laws become our own. That's not democracy.
So, you'd say that the EU fishing legislation didn't damage the UK fishing industry any then? :rolleyes:
The idea of a dictatorship comes, as I sure you know anyway, from the notion of dozens of power-wielding unelected Eurocrats who can't be challenged or removed, presiding over and passing legislation which their chums in state politics will endorse (you just said it yourself).

You're either being deliberately obtuse or proving my "young and daft" assertion. ;)

Oh, and nobody has mentioned immigration so far mate - just you. ;) :)
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UK politics is similar in that it is run by unelected civil servants. Haven't you seen Yes Minister?
 
RegalRef said:
how bent the bananas are, the cucumbers are, what wattage my lightbulbs are or what the maximum wattage on my vacuum cleaner is? Yet all these things are decided for me?
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How bent the bananas are or cucumbers are? Establishment of minimum standards so consumers aren't ripped off
Wattage of light bulb? See point above, also the introduction of energy efficient bulbs means less of a drain on the limited natural resources on the planet
Maximum wattage on vacuum cleaner? See point above regarding energy efficiency, also health&safety concerns that uncapped wattages could result in death dealing hoovers (well some that have a higher propensity to cause injury and/or death, particularly children and animals)
 
I am an ex-pat resident in another EU country. I am self employed. I referee for the local football association without being a citizen of the country. I get local social security and healthcare. I am a member of a local union even though I am not a citizen. If I am ill I can apply for sickness benefits here. I am about to have a nose operation with the local state health service. It's a 3-5k op.

If there is Brexit all of this goes into the unknown. Can I still be an entrepreneur? Will there still be reciprocal taxation agreements? Will there still be reciprocal social security agreements? Will I have to fly to the UK to have an operation? How will the rights of British permanent residents in other EU countries change (remember, there are about 2.5 million of us!)? Will I still be able to referee?

I believe we need tighter border controls. I believe we need tighter tax treaties.
But I also believe this vote is about Tory marginal seats and leadership plays.
One thing I do know. A vote for Brexit is basically inserting a large ungreased pole up my ronson. And my kids'...
 
Because bent fruit and veg is better thrown away than eaten when millions are starving because of 'quality'

That's champagne socialism right there that is
 
HertsFinest said:
Not true. EU statute is that EU law takes presidency over national law so if it's not in British law but is in EU law then EU wins unfortunately
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The United Kingdom is a 'dualist' nation, which means that in order for an EU directive or regulation to become law, an enabling act must be passed. Believe it or not, nowhere is it written in EU statute that European law takes precedence (Maastricht/Rome etc)...the member states simply have never agreed to it, although it has become the case. It's very rare for our courts to accept EU precedence though.

Kes said:
The politicians are all feeding from the same trough Matthew. That's why the majority of EU laws become our own. That's not democracy.
So, you'd say that the EU fishing legislation didn't damage the UK fishing industry any then? :rolleyes:
The idea of a dictatorship comes, as I sure you know anyway, from the notion of dozens of power-wielding unelected Eurocrats who can't be challenged or removed, presiding over and passing legislation which their chums in state politics will endorse (you just said it yourself).

You're either being deliberately obtuse or proving my "young and daft" assertion. ;)

Oh, and nobody has mentioned immigration so far mate - just you. ;) :)
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Have a look up the thread, you'll see immigration mentioned several times ;)

I'm fully aware of what a dictatorship is, I just don't see that here. All politicians are in it for themselves, that's really nothing new, but I cannot accept the notion that the EU is a dictatorship, at least not in the traditional sense of the word. You talk about the fishing industry; that was undoubtedly a mistake, but that's one legislative act. What about the minimum wage? The working time directive? The freedom to move around as we wish? All great things that the EU has done for this country.

The EU is far from perfect, but to think that leaving will instantly solve all our problems is naive.
 
Exactly what problems do people believe immigration and multiculturalism cause? Just curious.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
How bent the bananas are or cucumbers are? Establishment of minimum standards so consumers aren't ripped off
Wattage of light bulb? See point above, also the introduction of energy efficient bulbs means less of a drain on the limited natural resources on the planet
Maximum wattage on vacuum cleaner? See point above regarding energy efficiency, also health&safety concerns that uncapped wattages could result in death dealing hoovers (well some that have a higher propensity to cause injury and/or death, particularly children and animals)
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Establishment of minimum standards so consumers aren't ripped off - So what happens to the ones already in existence? Unnecessary waste which is not only a problem, but also results in increased prices. I'm sure as a first world country we're capable of grading our own fruit and veg appropriately.

Introduction of energy efficient bulbs means less of a drain on the limited natural resources on the planet - which also use more energy during their warm up than standard, take 8 times as much energy to produce and takes 3/4 of their lifetime to save, and are significantly more expensive to purchase, again taking years (if ever) to pay that additional cost back. I see the point of them, but why am I forced to buy only them? Why should I have my decision made for me?

Maximum wattage on vacuum cleaners? 'Death dealing hoovers'? I've heard it all now - Death by vacuum cleaner. At least you wouldn't make a mess when you went...
 
The EU regulations that go through our parliament must be passed, it's just a fait accompli. If every EU regulation were debated properly in parliament not much would get done, most of them are enforced without ever having to be approved by our parliament

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

The banana thing is a myth. The EU just say that bent bananas must be classed as a lower standard, it's the supermarkets who decided that people preferred straight bananas.
 
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Matthew said:
The United Kingdom is a 'dualist' nation, which means that in order for an EU directive or regulation to become law, an enabling act must be passed. Believe it or not, nowhere is it written in EU statute that European law takes precedence (Maastricht/Rome etc)...the member states simply have never agreed to it, although it has become the case. It's very rare for our courts to accept EU precedence though.



Have a look up the thread, you'll see immigration mentioned several times ;)

I'm fully aware of what a dictatorship is, I just don't see that here. All politicians are in it for themselves, that's really nothing new, but I cannot accept the notion that the EU is a dictatorship, at least not in the traditional sense of the word. You talk about the fishing industry; that was undoubtedly a mistake, but that's one legislative act. What about the minimum wage? The working time directive? The freedom to move around as we wish? All great things that the EU has done for this country.

The dictatorship is currently benign and in it's infancy. It's what's to come that should be of concern. The EEC trade agreement that we were signed up to in 1973 has, inside 40 years, morphed into an unelected system of centralised government making laws and passing legislation. Just think about that for a moment. It's grip and influence on everything we do (and can't do) increases with each year. The people running it can't be removed - except by themselves. On a sliding scale, what do you think the next 20-30 years are going to bring? To call it a dictatorship now might seem a little premature to some, but that's exactly it's intention and it's function ultimately. How can it not be?

The EU is far from perfect, but to think that leaving will instantly solve all our problems is naive.
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You're generalising way to much with that last sentence mate. Nobody is suggesting it will. This is about long term freedom and self determination. That probably means nowt to a youngster just starting out in life where money and self-gratification are the be all and end all (as Charlie showed earlier) but make no mistake, the superstate control deck is going to buzz louder and louder and at a much faster pace from June 23rd onwards if/when the UK remains. :)
 
Do you think the UK should join or not join the European Union?

Join
Not join

If that was the question it would be 95%\5%
 
SM said:
Exactly what problems do people believe immigration and multiculturalism cause? Just curious.
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Go and live in London/Birmingham/Manchester/Leicester and see. ;)

Mainly financial, when the immigration is from 3rd world countries. European skilled workers - no problem with that.

Try this one then - list one benefit to the UK of multiculturalism (not immigration). :cool:
 
Kes said:
Go and live in London/Birmingham/Manchester/Leicester and see. ;)

Mainly financial, when the immigration is from 3rd world countries. European skilled workers - no problem with that.

Try this one then - list one benefit to the UK of multiculturalism (not immigration). :cool:
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Yeah, what have the multiculturalists ever done for us?

(apologies to Python fans)
 
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