A&H

Handball in the box

How about if an elite Scottish (premier league) referee says otherwise. Would that change your mind? :p:D


Nope

And here is why, plenty a time at discussion groups, elite and all levels, the tutor has been questioned as to why

The answer, on many occasions, has been, " well i myself dont agree but this is fifas instruction"

And low and behold, you will then see that referee or colleague, in a situation akin to the clip shown as a lesson, ignoring the fifa clip they were lecturing on, and giving their own decision on it
 
The Referee Store
With penalty decisions we get one look at an incident and I think we react on instinct. If you blew for a penalty at that moment your opinion was probably right and it was a pen. I think you are now doubting your self because it was a decision that was a KMI at the end of a game of big importance to the 2 teams involved, and crying children. Would you be feeling the same doubt if it was involving 2 adult hairy a***d teams. I think guilt might be affecting your view of the incident. And if you come to the conclusion you did make a rick you can learn from it. We all mistakes and as said before in this thread we learn more from them than the easy games we get.
 
I hate John Terry handballs but giving one against an 11 year old?
JT deliberate yes, years of training, calculated
Little Johnny deliberate...? I'm in the... Probably no camp.
 


Happy to leave this here.

“The correct outcome should have been a penalty kick awarded for the use of the hand, and a red card for the denial of a goal—not the denial of an obvious goal-scoring opportunity, but the denial of a goal, because clearly the ball would have gone in had Frings not blocked it,”

“A handball has to be deliberate, but when a team gains such a huge advantage through a handball and there is that element of a slight movement toward the ball—or even not a retraction of the arm away from the flight of the ball—then the referee, generally speaking, will penalize the offender.”

Cor blimey
 
Well, I know "at the time", the referee was adjudged to have got it right.
I also, for the 1% its worth, support the referee on this one
As "at the time although i accept its from 2002", did FIFA, who said it was the correct call

not deliberate.
 
Well, I know "at the time", the referee was adjudged to have got it right.
I also, for the 1% its worth, support the referee on this one
As "at the time although i accept its from 2002", did FIFA, who said it was the correct call

not deliberate.
Quote was from one H Webb in 2017... Comedy gold.
Sadly, as much as I was fuming at the time, no pen for me.
 
Deliberate handling is determined by a number of factors. We can't determine intent, so we use cues to determine. Some of the reasoning you've provided in this thread is just way off the mark.

One of the more interesting comments I've seen about slide tackle handballs (or even just blocks) is that you generally always know where your hand is.

So when you go into a slide tackle and your arm is in a silly position, and you handled it, you may not have intended to handle it, but you've deliberately put your hand in that position, ergo: Deliberate handball.

The same with blocks, if you run in to block a cross and your hand is up in the air and the ball hits it, you've put your hand there, it's deliberate.

I thought it was a slightly flawed argument, but I can see the merits of it, and I just wonder if that could be used as a factor. I personally don't call handballs if a player's arms are in a completely natural position (i.e. by his side or whatever), that's unrealistic, they've got to be somewhere, but I have used elements of that point of view to decide if someone should be doing better in that respect. (Does that make sense?)

What do you think?
 
How about if an elite Scottish (premier league) referee says otherwise. Would that change your mind? :p:D
One of the more interesting comments I've seen about slide tackle handballs (or even just blocks) is that you generally always know where your hand is.

So when you go into a slide tackle and your arm is in a silly position, and you handled it, you may not have intended to handle it, but you've deliberately put your hand in that position, ergo: Deliberate handball.

The same with blocks, if you run in to block a cross and your hand is up in the air and the ball hits it, you've put your hand there, it's deliberate.

I thought it was a slightly flawed argument, but I can see the merits of it, and I just wonder if that could be used as a factor. I personally don't call handballs if a player's arms are in a completely natural position (i.e. by his side or whatever), that's unrealistic, they've got to be somewhere, but I have used elements of that point of view to decide if someone should be doing better in that respect. (Does that make sense?)

What do you think?
Overriding factor has to be a judgement on whether the action is deliberate. I have never agreed with this 'unnatural' position malarkey. Both of your examples read as accidental handball to me.......you have to see it to really give a considered opinion.
 
How do we know if the 'directive or interpretation' in this video has been endorsed by IFAB?
 
As someone who sent most of my playing time at centre half, when you dive to block a shot you have no idea what your hands are doing. I'd like to think mine weren't high in the air a la John Terry, but equally I know they wouldn't have been tucked under my body to make sure the ball didn't hit them. If you dive in feet first to prevent the shot and had a choice where your hands went the first choice would be to protect the crown jewels as that is inevitably the part of your anatomy that would stop the shot. I can still painfully remember the goal preventing block I made when the kicker's foot was still in contact with the ball as my private parts got in the way, don't mind admitting a few tears after that one .. :cry:
 
Is it fair that an attacker's cross is cut out by the ball hitting an opponent's hand? Not really. Is it fair that a defender is penalized for being born with arms whether he goes to ground or not? I'd say no. The problem with the two decisions is that the majority of players would not expect a penalty, as evidenced my the majority decision in the audience. If this is a bonafide directive, why not make it public, so everyone is on the same page; players and refs alike?
 
If I gave 1 in 10 of the HB appeals I received I would be shocked. There are exceptions but i'm sure 'Most' players don't set out to deliberately handle a ball. The consequence are generally bad and can end in cards or penalties or dismissals.
 
If I gave 1 in 10 of the HB appeals I received I would be shocked. There are exceptions but i'm sure 'Most' players don't set out to deliberately handle a ball. The consequence are generally bad and can end in cards or penalties or dismissals.
I give very few handballs as well. That said, we do need to remember that there is a subtle but hugely important distinction between 'setting out to deliberately handle a ball' and 'making a deliberate action which results in the ball hitting the hand'. BOTH of these are offences which we should penalise and the latter are the ones which always cause the most debate :)
 
I agree with all your points RJ, That said, Like Minty, I'm also not convinced on this Unnatural position clap trap, If i'm a defender, i'm doing just that, defending, I cant predict where the ball will be struck against me so how can it be a deliberate action to hand ball it!! It was a chanced connection, hardly deliberate on the defenders part. I always thought of myself of a decent judge on this and still get the majority right on TV. The ones I wince at are the arms flaying behind a defender given as hand ball, scandalous!!!
 
This is one area where referees will never get consistency as opinions on what constitutes intentional handling are so varied. The key thing for me is that each referee is consistent on how he or she applies the handling offences, so that at least each alleged offence in the same game draws the same outcome.
 
I give very few handballs as well. That said, we do need to remember that there is a subtle but hugely important distinction between 'setting out to deliberately handle a ball' and 'making a deliberate action which results in the ball hitting the hand'. BOTH of these are offences which we should penalise and the latter are the ones which always cause the most debate :)
No, they are not. The second is not intentional therefore cannot be deliberate handball.......
 
This is one area where referees will never get consistency as opinions on what constitutes intentional handling are so varied.
The reason is very simply demonstrated in this thread. There are referees (all the way up to FIFA badge) who have the approach of "I don't think its an offence, and I don't care what anyone says, even if its FIFA or IFAB, I am not going to give it".

FIFA/IFAB are trying to create a consistent approach, its up to the referees to follow instructions and throw away the "I know better than everyone else" attitude. I think @CapnBloodbeard said it in the previous page. You don't have to agree with the instruction. You just have to follow it.

The key thing for me is that each referee is consistent on how he or she applies the handling offences, so that at least each alleged offence in the same game draws the same outcome.
The problem with that is the last week's ref syndrome.
 
The US video is a perfect example of what's happening in this thread. This was the national referee camp full of referees with aspirations of doing professional games (and most in that room will have already done games in the 2nd and 3rd tier of US football). When shown the video, they were 50/50 because of the differing opinions when it comes to handling the ball. That's why a FIFA instructor was there to explain that these are both examples of deliberate handling and IFAB wants them called. It's no different than the deliberate/deflection debate for offside. Different referees can interpret the language differently, so we need video examples from an authoritative source saying "this is deliberate" and "this is a deflection" so a referee can try to match what happens in their game to improve consistency.
 
Back
Top