CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
If so then I'm happy with a foul., even at that level It's on the coach to teach the player how to slide properly. Sliding with an arm out is blocking a kick - the arm should be tucked underneath the body.
Handball in the box
- Thread starter Jim Barnett
- Start date
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Does not sound from the description to be handball no.
Bigger picture as someone else said, at 0-0 with seconds to go, as much as on paper a foul is a foul and so on, for me, its got to be a pen that is absolutely without doubt. The fact you are even questioning hours later if it was deliberate or not sways me into the non deliberate camp
How many times in a season, far less a game in isolation, will a player deliberatley handle the ball? As in, see the ball coming towards them, then decide, hey, you know what, am going to outstretch my hands, arms, whatever, and on purpose use my hands, arms, to make contact with that ball? Very very very few, far less on purpose whilst in a sliding motion, and I would even doubt a kid of that age has the mentality to on purpose block the ball with his hand whilst in a slidy motion
The plus side for you is its certainly not your fault re the score, this alledged handball was 1 second of the allocated 70 mins or so that both teams had to score more goals than their opponents.
Bigger picture as someone else said, at 0-0 with seconds to go, as much as on paper a foul is a foul and so on, for me, its got to be a pen that is absolutely without doubt. The fact you are even questioning hours later if it was deliberate or not sways me into the non deliberate camp
How many times in a season, far less a game in isolation, will a player deliberatley handle the ball? As in, see the ball coming towards them, then decide, hey, you know what, am going to outstretch my hands, arms, whatever, and on purpose use my hands, arms, to make contact with that ball? Very very very few, far less on purpose whilst in a sliding motion, and I would even doubt a kid of that age has the mentality to on purpose block the ball with his hand whilst in a slidy motion
The plus side for you is its certainly not your fault re the score, this alledged handball was 1 second of the allocated 70 mins or so that both teams had to score more goals than their opponents.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Disagree totally, there is no requirement or directive re this, it might be a personal take on how a slide should be but regardless, the act of handling the ball still has to be deliberate. We have no authority to dictate that the arm should be tucked under the body.
Handball decisions are one of the more difficult to make in my opinion. Regardless of the situation, if its touched someones arm/hand players are screaming at you for a foul and you have to make a decision on the spot. Did you deem it to be deliberate? Was it an unnatural position? Could he have got out of the way? If any of these questions are a yes, then its a foul.
Most important thing is not to dwell on it. Like it said, it can be a tough decision to make on the spot and even though you gave a last minute penalty and it may seem like you cost them a cup final, both teams had 90 minutes to get themselves there
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
You should probably watch the attached video before you try to promote that (incorrect) viewpoint further
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
You should probably watch the attached video before you try to promote that (incorrect) viewpoint further
Clip 1 and 2 are not even close to being the same, clip 1 is not handbal, clip 2 however is and nothing that is preached in that clip will deviate from that.
One is a guy sliding into a tackle and the ball strikes him
The second is a guy sliding for no other reason than to make himself bigger and block the ball by any means possible
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
So you know handball better than a FIFA instructor and just about everybody else on here?
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Dont be fooled into thinking just because someone is spoon fed what to show on a big screen that one glove fits all. If the script to the video clip says the football is actually a pineapple, then thats what the instructor will tell you
Never lose sight of the fact that only one person truly knows if a handball was deliberate or not....and that person will not be passing comment in any clip, fifa or otherwise, anytime soon
Never lose sight of the fact that only one person truly knows if a handball was deliberate or not....and that person will not be passing comment in any clip, fifa or otherwise, anytime soon
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Oh cool, so in that case I guess you'll never ever penalise for handball? After all, if only one person knows, then you never have any right to penalise, do you?
Also, I can't decide whether to laugh or shake my head at your obtuse 'spoon fed' comment. I don't suppose it occurred to you that the one talking is probably the one running the education session?
I have no idea who you think is supposed to be writing a script or since when sessions like that had a script, but sure, okay.........
Also, I can't decide whether to laugh or shake my head at your obtuse 'spoon fed' comment. I don't suppose it occurred to you that the one talking is probably the one running the education session?
I have no idea who you think is supposed to be writing a script or since when sessions like that had a script, but sure, okay.........
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Again not quite, because as we know, or should know, the laws make reference to, in the opinion of the referee.
Thats basic.
Thats basic.
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
But you just said that only one person knows if it was deliberate.
So if the referee has to make a decision without that inside knowledge, then I guess that was a fairly meaningless comment of yours, wasn't it?
So how does the referee determine the decision, without the benefit of telepathy?
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Deliberate, in the opinion of the referee.
In my opinion, clip 1 is not deliberate, clip 2 however is
Nothing any clip board or lecture or indeed you, is or are going to change that
You cannot be incorrect on an opinion call. Someone can disagree yes indeed, and strongly back up their case
But you cannot be incorrect on a call of opinion, rather than fact.
In my opinion, clip 1 is not deliberate, clip 2 however is
Nothing any clip board or lecture or indeed you, is or are going to change that
You cannot be incorrect on an opinion call. Someone can disagree yes indeed, and strongly back up their case
But you cannot be incorrect on a call of opinion, rather than fact.
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
'you cannot be incorrect on an opinion call'.
So there are no wrong referee decisions?
No referee who has awarded a penalty (or not) was ever wrong?
No referee who has sent a player off - or not - was wrong?
Hang on a minute, didn't you say that the OP was wrong on his decision?
So which is it? You can be incorrect on an opinion call or you can't?
So there are no wrong referee decisions?
No referee who has awarded a penalty (or not) was ever wrong?
No referee who has sent a player off - or not - was wrong?
Hang on a minute, didn't you say that the OP was wrong on his decision?
So which is it? You can be incorrect on an opinion call or you can't?
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
continue this pvt or not at all, i dont think a forum wish to read your stocking filler debate
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Why won't this damn horse drink the water...
I find it amusing that you could have messaged me with that request, but you very deliberately didn't.
Stocking filler debate? I'm trying to demonstrate to YOU that you've said a number of contradictions in this thread. You've said a number of things you clearly don't believe. I'm certainly a little disappointed that you've responded in the tone you have rather than acknowledge where you've contradicted yourself, but fine. I guess the adage was true.
You need to get some clarity in your thought processes - you'll never see consistency in your refereeing if you're not even consistent in your thought processes. If you're at uni I'd even suggest taking up a critical thinking elective will help you with that.
The other benefit to refereeing is to remember that you don't know everything. You may have reached a point where you feel like an expert, but you most certainly don't know everything. And if you can't swallow your pride and take lessons, your refereeing is going to hit a wall. Hard and fast. Your promotions are going to hit a wall.
Bluntly, all of your posts on this thread have ignored the LOTG. Deliberate handling is determined by a number of factors. We can't determine intent, so we use cues to determine. Some of the reasoning you've provided in this thread is just way off the mark.
The net effect of these cues is that I would suggest it kind of puts the onus on the player to be trying to not handle the ball.
That's completely in line with FIFA instructions, and arguably community expectations.
The video - if you haven't watched it, then you really need to. The full thing. And watch it with an open mind - remembering you're watching somebody with far more experience and expertise than you, and what he is saying is directly in line with what David Elleray has said directly from IFAB about defenders taking the risk when they slide in. He actually explains the reasoning behind this viewpoint better than anybody else.
You might not agree, but I don't agree with every directive or instruction FIFA have come out with. But given that they, in a very stretched sense, are your employer (in the sense that they're setting the 'rules' of your employment), if they say 'this is now the expectation', then guess what? That's now how you're doing your job. You don't have to agree with all of it, but it's what's required.
Personally, I don't like that the 2nd incident in that clip is a foul, but I know that FIFA consider it to be a foul (thus, if I was to referee tomorrow, I'd have to as well). The first - well, he's slid in with his arm well above his head. He's blocked off at least another 2 feet of ground using his hand. This is just making his body bigger, no different to running at an attacker with arms out. That's easy, but as the clip says, that doesn't really matter given FIFA's approach on it these days.
I find it amusing that you could have messaged me with that request, but you very deliberately didn't.
Stocking filler debate? I'm trying to demonstrate to YOU that you've said a number of contradictions in this thread. You've said a number of things you clearly don't believe. I'm certainly a little disappointed that you've responded in the tone you have rather than acknowledge where you've contradicted yourself, but fine. I guess the adage was true.
You need to get some clarity in your thought processes - you'll never see consistency in your refereeing if you're not even consistent in your thought processes. If you're at uni I'd even suggest taking up a critical thinking elective will help you with that.
The other benefit to refereeing is to remember that you don't know everything. You may have reached a point where you feel like an expert, but you most certainly don't know everything. And if you can't swallow your pride and take lessons, your refereeing is going to hit a wall. Hard and fast. Your promotions are going to hit a wall.
Bluntly, all of your posts on this thread have ignored the LOTG. Deliberate handling is determined by a number of factors. We can't determine intent, so we use cues to determine. Some of the reasoning you've provided in this thread is just way off the mark.
The net effect of these cues is that I would suggest it kind of puts the onus on the player to be trying to not handle the ball.
That's completely in line with FIFA instructions, and arguably community expectations.
The video - if you haven't watched it, then you really need to. The full thing. And watch it with an open mind - remembering you're watching somebody with far more experience and expertise than you, and what he is saying is directly in line with what David Elleray has said directly from IFAB about defenders taking the risk when they slide in. He actually explains the reasoning behind this viewpoint better than anybody else.
You might not agree, but I don't agree with every directive or instruction FIFA have come out with. But given that they, in a very stretched sense, are your employer (in the sense that they're setting the 'rules' of your employment), if they say 'this is now the expectation', then guess what? That's now how you're doing your job. You don't have to agree with all of it, but it's what's required.
Personally, I don't like that the 2nd incident in that clip is a foul, but I know that FIFA consider it to be a foul (thus, if I was to referee tomorrow, I'd have to as well). The first - well, he's slid in with his arm well above his head. He's blocked off at least another 2 feet of ground using his hand. This is just making his body bigger, no different to running at an attacker with arms out. That's easy, but as the clip says, that doesn't really matter given FIFA's approach on it these days.
Last edited:
one
RefChat Addict
How about if an elite Scottish (premier league) referee says otherwise. Would that change your mind?
zarathustra
RefChat Addict
From what you described I think a call on whether this was a deliberate handball is probably, for me at least, 50/50 especially without seeing the incident for myself.
It’s done now so don’t worry about it, if you do think you got it wrong then see if you can identify what you can do in your next game to help make the decision easier.
Maybe going a bit wider or getting further into the penalty area might give you a better viewing angle etc.
It’s done now so don’t worry about it, if you do think you got it wrong then see if you can identify what you can do in your next game to help make the decision easier.
Maybe going a bit wider or getting further into the penalty area might give you a better viewing angle etc.