The Ref Stop

Che v Bou - brooks challenge

but all Cucurella did here was to deliberately run into a player to try and manufacture an outcome. Something he has done many times before unfortunately.
As you mentioned in another post in this thread, he has history of this.
In the Brentford game recently he "won" a free kick very late in the game to deny Brentford a last attack by turning and running straight into the Brentford player and falling down as if he'd been shot. There was nothing in it at all and he got what he wanted.
 
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in any walk of life (not just refereeing) it makes sense to first look at the intentions of the rule breaker before even trying to look if it's necessary to look at the intentions of the one who was at the other end of the incident.
I don't agree. As an example, if I drive very slowly on a road because another car is right up my arse, then technically I'm the rule breaker but he's the one who caused the problem.
The actions of Cucurella should definitely be taken in to account. Should they change the decision? Not necessarily, but they can help us come to a decision.
 
It doesn't say that fans cannot interact here. Anyway, don't know why you don't want to answer my questions, but in any walk of life (not just refereeing) it makes sense to first look at the intentions of the rule breaker before even trying to look if it's necessary to look at the intentions of the one who was at the other end of the incident.

I don't know how a referee can think that just because a player might have been "looking for it" allows the offender to then smash his arm in the other's face (while fully looking at him beforehand and then making a deliberate movement towards the other player's face with his arm) and getting away with a yellow.
It doesn't matter to me whether you're a Referee or not. Whilst this is a Referee Forum which is mostly used by Referees to intercommunicate on all matters Refereeing, I value the opinions of non-Referees equally
Ideally, Rob Jones might have seen the incident himself in real-time during active play, but once he was sent to the screen, I thought it was excellent Refereeing to resist the temptation to dismiss Brooks. We rarely see a Referee go against the VAR review
For me, the action and consequence did not marry up. Cucurella's reaction was excessive. In itself, it was cheating because there was nothing wrong with him. Anyway, the pertinent consideration was that based on the available replay angles, it wasn't clear to me this was an 'act of brutality' and I was pleased to see Jones deem the infarction 'reckless'. Both players were at it with one during the game and Jones rightly took this into account. The game is all about opinions and I'd accept the opinion of Violent Conduct here, so I'm not dismissing your viewpoint even though I don't agree with it

We can't keep rewarding excessive reaction. To do so only encourages players like Cucurella to behave the way they do. I don't like it
FWIW, this was not as bad as Joelinton's clothes-lining incident against the Bournemouth GK in the second game of the season
 
It doesn't say that fans cannot interact here. Anyway, don't know why you don't want to answer my questions, but in any walk of life (not just refereeing) it makes sense to first look at the intentions of the rule breaker before even trying to look if it's necessary to look at the intentions of the one who was at the other end of the incident.

I don't know how a referee can think that just because a player might have been "looking for it" allows the offender to then smash his arm in the other's face (while fully looking at him beforehand and then making a deliberate movement towards the other player's face with his arm) and getting away with a yellow.
Maybe have a look at the post literally on the top of this forum, pinned.

 
Also the Christie challenge for the Reece James free kick - that's pretty much a second yellow, completely misses the ball and takes out the player from behind.
I don't agree. Whilst this might attract a Caution for 'Unsporting Behaviour - Stopping a Promising Attack', I thought the absence of intent (pushing, pulling, intentional tripping) and the resulting free kick perpetuated the 'Promising Attack' because of the location of the offence. The bar is always higher for the second yellow. You might be right that the threshold for a first Caution may have been reached. The higher bar for the second yellow is part of the game and is not written into Law. That's a different debate
 
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It doesn't say that fans cannot interact here.
We are all fans of one club or another. So of course it doesn't say fans can't interact here, else the forum could not exist.

Totally fine if you want to discuss / understand refereeing and post in a non-partisan way; but this is not the place to come and complain about refereeing decisions against your team, there are dedicated fans forums available for those kinds of posts.

Not saying it's what you are doing right now but more setting expectations of what we expect the site to be used for, which has always been a great resource for referees around the world
 
We are all fans of one club or another. So of course it doesn't say fans can't interact here, else the forum could not exist.

Totally fine if you want to discuss / understand refereeing and post in a non-partisan way; but this is not the place to come and complain about refereeing decisions against your team, there are dedicated fans forums available for those kinds of posts.

Not saying it's what you are doing right now but more setting expectations of what we expect the site to be used for, which has always been a great resource for referees around the world
And to add, the value of this forum is to assess and understand refereeing decisions from an objective point of view. Once this becomes skewed by bias, the conversation loses its value. I'm all for questioning and challenging decisions in order to understand, but not just for the purpose of referee-bashing.
 
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I don't agree. Whilst this might attract a Caution for 'Unsporting Behaviour - Stopping a Promising Attack', I thought the absence of intent (pushing, pulling, intentional tripping) and the resulting free kick perpetuated the 'Promising Attack' because of the location of the offence. The bar is always higher for the second yellow. You might be right that the threshold for a first Caution may have been reached. The higher bar for the second yellow is part of the game and is not written into Law. That's a different debate
When it comes to tactical fouls, I think all referees (top to bottom) are more likely to caution for SPA (especially first cautions) if there is an element of cynicism or intent in the foul.

Interestingly, this approach does not seem to extend to DOGSO where the most innocent of careless trips can easily end up as a red card (if it works with the three D’s and a C considerations) whereas blatantly cynical acts which marginally fail on one of the considerations end up as a YC. Given the initial rationale behind the introduction of DOGSO reds was to severely punish ‘professional’ fouls, I’d love IFAB to find a way to include another D or C (deliberate / cynical) into our DOGSO thinking 🤔
 
It doesn't matter to me whether you're a Referee or not. Whilst this is a Referee Forum which is mostly used by Referees to intercommunicate on all matters Refereeing, I value the opinions of non-Referees equally
Ideally, Rob Jones might have seen the incident himself in real-time during active play, but once he was sent to the screen, I thought it was excellent Refereeing to resist the temptation to dismiss Brooks. We rarely see a Referee go against the VAR review
For me, the action and consequence did not marry up. Cucurella's reaction was excessive. In itself, it was cheating because there was nothing wrong with him. Anyway, the pertinent consideration was that based on the available replay angles, it wasn't clear to me this was an 'act of brutality' and I was pleased to see Jones deem the infarction 'reckless'. Both players were at it with one during the game and Jones rightly took this into account. The game is all about opinions and I'd accept the opinion of Violent Conduct here, so I'm not dismissing your viewpoint even though I don't agree with it

We can't keep rewarding excessive reaction. To do so only encourages players like Cucurella to behave the way they do. I don't like it
FWIW, this was not as bad as Joelinton's clothes-lining incident against the Bournemouth GK in the second game of the season
You talk about reaction, but my counter-argument in this case would be that if he doesn't react or "try to sell it", he doesn't get the decision. Like the red the Southampton player got against him - it wasn't a crazy hair pull, but if he doesn't try to sell it, there is a good chance it goes missed.

I know that it can be frustrating to have to deal with the excessive acting, but many times players haven't got fouls/pens because they didn't try to sell it.

I agree that you can't be rewarding excessive reactions, but at the same time, you can't increase a threshold that can be applied to opponents for one player just because he tries to act, because then the standard is different for some, which is not fair.

And tbf, at least one referee thought it was a red card, otherwise Graham Scott wouldn't have sent Rob Jones to the screen. I'd agree with you in some other instances that it would be great to see refs actually go against VAR suggestion, but in my opinion this wasn't the case just because Brooks is clearly looking at Cucurella too, and swings his arm and catches him in the chin/neck area. If it would be torso, ok, if on-pitch referees miss it, then VAR shouldn't get involved, as it wouldn't be a red card challenge.
 
I don't agree. Whilst this might attract a Caution for 'Unsporting Behaviour - Stopping a Promising Attack', I thought the absence of intent (pushing, pulling, intentional tripping) and the resulting free kick perpetuated the 'Promising Attack' because of the location of the offence. The bar is always higher for the second yellow. You might be right that the threshold for a first Caution may have been reached. The higher bar for the second yellow is part of the game and is not written into Law. That's a different debate
I missed part of the game, so I can't fully say how true it is, but Christie apparently had at least one more similar foul while being on a yellow already.
 
I'd agree with you in some other instances that it would be great to see refs actually go against VAR suggestion,
Id argue against this. VAR executed perfectly should really result in zero overturns at the monitor so when it happens, it's not great, but it means that we've created another error, be that the final decision or the decision to recommend an on field review.
 
Id argue against this. VAR executed perfectly should really result in zero overturns at the monitor so when it happens, it's not great, but it means that we've created another error, be that the final decision or the decision to recommend an on field review.
I was mid-writing exactly this post, so will just cancel that post and agree with James.

I'd argue a system where more/different reviews happen and referees are empowered to actually make the decisions they want to would be better - but under the system we have, refusals at the monitor are effectively a mistake and shouldn't happen.
 
I don't agree. As an example, if I drive very slowly on a road because another car is right up my arse, then technically I'm the rule breaker but he's the one who caused the problem.
The actions of Cucurella should definitely be taken in to account. Should they change the decision? Not necessarily, but they can help us come to a decision.
I agree that Cucurella's actions should be taken into account, but in this case after seeing that Brooks was clearly targetting him (he looked at him right before) and then getting his arm out like that face height would deem anything irrelevant (an unlucky connection with the chin can knock someone out). For me the problem is that Brooks goes for his head rather than his torso.
 
Id argue against this. VAR executed perfectly should really result in zero overturns at the monitor so when it happens, it's not great, but it means that we've created another error, be that the final decision or the decision to recommend an on field review.
Ideally I agree with you, there would be no errors, and whenever the ref is sent, it's clear that it's the correct decision. But sometimes there have been cases where it seems that the on-field referee gave the decision unwillingly just because he was sent to the screen, which I don't think is ideal.
 
Id argue against this. VAR executed perfectly should really result in zero overturns at the monitor so when it happens, it's not great, but it means that we've created another error, be that the final decision or the decision to recommend an on field review.

But as Howard Webb says, the VAR are only human so prone to an error or a situation where a referee disagree with the VAR but the referee was wrong to reject the review.

VAR reject reviews are quite rare as they should be but it should never be the case they never happen at all.

I think Rob Jones at the screen saw a cynical foul and it did look more shoulder than face/neck however because of the poor angles avaliable it was inconclusive and I think the referee was right to go yellow for the cynical foul.

Because this involved a big 6 team, there's a good chance this clip may feature on mic'd up and I hope it does because I'm interested too hear where the VAR thought the point of contact was.
 
But as Howard Webb says, the VAR are only human so prone to an error or a situation where a referee disagree with the VAR but the referee was wrong to reject the review.
Well yes, but you've neglected to consider the phrase I used "executed perfectly" that would remove imperfections such as the humans prone to error or any other reason that would lead to an error.
We don't want to see more refusals at the screen, we want less, that should always be the target, but only if we follow that with correct decisions on review.
 
Well yes, but you've neglected to consider the phrase I used "executed perfectly" that would remove imperfections such as the humans prone to error or any other reason that would lead to an error.
We don't want to see more refusals at the screen, we want less, that should always be the target, but only if we follow that with correct decisions on review.

To be fair, 12 review rejections since VAR came in 2019 is a pretty low enough number hence the comments of we all know what's likely going to happen here and what is the point of going to the screen when they always change their mind also tells you the perception a referee sticking with his decision is very rare.

We all want perfection but we never going to get that especially with subjectivity.
 
To be fair, 12 review rejections since VAR came in 2019 is a pretty low enough number hence the comments of we all know what's likely going to happen here and what is the point of going to the screen when they always change their mind also tells you the perception a referee sticking with his decision is very rare.

We all want perfection but we never going to get that especially with subjectivity.
As far as I'm aware, being sent to review is for some of the more borderline decisions and therefore the referee should have a look themselves to have the final say. I would say I would always want decisions like this to go to screen because it it not concrete and will be subjective no matter what.

99/100 the decision will be changed, but you could see it as both the ref and var seeing the incident the same and have agreed on the decision.
 
As far as I'm aware, being sent to review is for some of the more borderline decisions and therefore the referee should have a look themselves to have the final say. I would say I would always want decisions like this to go to screen because it it not concrete and will be subjective no matter what.

99/100 the decision will be changed, but you could see it as both the ref and var seeing the incident the same and have agreed on the decision.
That isn't correct, there's no concept of VAR recommending a review so that the referee can have a look for themselves to make a decision. Rather VAR has to make a judgement call that the referee has made a clear and obvious error, only then can they recommend a review. So on that basis it should be extremely rare that the a review is recommended, that can only happen when VAR says there was a clear and obvious error and the referee doesn't agree.
 
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