Are Team Sheets Mandatory under the LOTG?

[GraemeS]

Maybe we could add this to example #97 of how the new LOTG clearly weren't proofread before release?
Or perhaps the clause noted above is simply inapplicable when there is no team list (which doesn't cause any problems in interpreting that clause).
I actually find it strange that IFAB have chosen to include in the LOTG what is essentially an administrative concern.

I'm not so convinced about it being admin only - they have separate laws on how to react if an outside agent gets involved in the match vs. if a sub or team official gets involved.

With that in mind, it then becomes their responsibility to define what an outside agent is. And as the OP has pointed out, they've failed to clearly do that in competitions where the referee hasn't been given a team sheet, or in competitions where the team sheet doesn't need to include an exhaustive list of every possible coach/physio/team official.

As you say, common sense will tell you pretty quickly who is involved with the team and who is just spectating, particularly at low level football - but the laws should exist so that we don't have to apply common sense in that way.

 

[Mintyref]

Don't understand any issues here, either there is an 'official' written team list, or the referee is given the names of all of the substitutes. If a player is not on the fop at the start of the match nor on the written list of substitutes then they are ipso facto not playing any part in the game!

 

[YorkshireReferee]

There are always team sheets, every league requires to know what players have played when.

The difference is whether or not team sheets have to be presented to the referee or not, and that is dependent on 'competition rules'.

False, I've operated on a league that acted without team sheets.

 

[McTavish]

Don't understand any issues here, either there is an 'official' written team list, or the referee is given the names of all of the substitutes. If a player is not on the fop at the start of the match nor on the written list of substitutes then they are ipso facto not playing any part in the game!

But what about managers, coaches, physios etc? If you look at the following:

If play is stopped and the interference was by:
• a team official, substitute, substituted or sent off player, play restarts with a direct free kick or penalty kick
• an outside agent, play restarts with a dropped ball

As the laws have said previously that anyone not on the team list is an outside agent, unless you have team sheets/lists that include all the officials then if, for example, a physio prevents a goal then technically if he is on the team list it would be a penalty but otherwise it would be a dropped ball. In real life I would certainly be awarding a penalty whether I had team sheets or not but if there are no lists I would be incorrect under the LOTG (unless I invoked Spirit of the Game).

This is largely a pedantic point but it does show that once again the laws are sometimes written without considering how the game is actually played...

 

[RegalRef]

False, I've operated on a league that acted without team sheets.

It can't have.

How would a league know which players had played, their registration status or their suspension status?

My Sunday league doesn't have 'team sheets' per se, but each team mus submit the players that played each game to the league.

 

[YorkshireReferee]

It can't have.

How would a league know which players had played, their registration status or their suspension status?

My Sunday league doesn't have 'team sheets' per se, but each team mus submit the players that played each game to the league.

And yet it did.

 

[GraemeS]

Can I suggest we're drifting off topic sightly here? When it comes to referees knowing who is a team official and who is an outside agent, there's no practical difference between a league where teamsheets aren't used, another league where the referee doesn't get a copy of the teamsheet and a third league where the teamsheet is a list of 11 players + subs and no one else.

In all the above situations, the referee hasn't been given a sheet that includes a list of team officials. So what are we to do when "someone" runs on and interferes with play and the LOTG requires one response if that person is an official and a different response if that person is a random spectator?

 

[McTavish]

In all the above situations, the referee hasn't been given a sheet that includes a list of team officials. So what are we to do when "someone" runs on and interferes with play and the LOTG requires one response if that person is an official and a different response if that person is a random spectator?

Exactly. And to push it further it requires one response if that person is an official who is on the team list and a different response if that person is not on the team list whether he is an official or not.

So if someone with a first aid bag is treating an injured player behind the opposition goal (and is therefore obviously the physio/first aid guy/man with the magic sponge) and seeing a shot going towards the goal leaps up and makes a save, according to the LOTG if he is on the the "team list" it is a pen and otherwise it is a dropped ball.

 

[GraemeS]

Exactly. And to push it further it requires one response if that person is an official who is on the team list and a different response if that person is not on the team list whether he is an official or not.

So if someone with a first aid bag is treating an injured player behind the opposition goal (and is therefore obviously the physio/first aid guy/man with the magic sponge) and seeing a shot going towards the goal leaps up and makes a save, according to the LOTG if he is on the the "team list" it is a pen and otherwise it is a dropped ball.

That's a very good point. In one league I officiate on, someone has to sign and print their name on the team sheet as "manager". But there's no requirement (or even space) for any assistant managers, coaches or physio's to be named. So the suggestion is, every team has a single team official (aka, the guy who wanders over and gives you the team sheet) and that's it - anyone else is an outside agent?

 

[AlexF]

So the suggestion is, every team has a single team official (aka, the guy who wanders over and gives you the team sheet) and that's it - anyone else is an outside agent?

If that's the case, then only that one single team official may be in the technical area with the substitutes.

Anyone else must be considered a spectator and be with the spectators.

 

[McTavish]

If that's the case, then only that one single team official may be in the technical area with the substitutes.

Anyone else must be considered a spectator and be with the spectators.

At the level we are discussing here, there are often no technical areas...which emphasises the point that this law seems to have been written without proper consideration for the game as it is played at the grassroots level.

 

[AlexF]

There's ALWAYS a technical area, even if it isn't marked out outside the field of play.

From the 16-17 Laws:

• the technical area should only extend 1m (1yd) on either side of the designated seated area and up to a distance of 1m (1 yd) from the touchline
• markings should be used to define the area
• the number of persons permitted to occupy the technical area is defined by the competition rules
• the occupants of the technical area:
  • are identified before the start of the match in accordance with the competition rules

So... you have your technical area, even if unmarked, and thus, anyone within that area has to be identified.

So... my prior comment still holds.

In short -- if they're in the technical area, then they are not outside agents, but are on the "team list".

 

[PinnerPaul]

There are always team sheets, every league requires to know what players have played when.

The difference is whether or not team sheets have to be presented to the referee or not, and that is dependent on 'competition rules'.

Spot on!

 

[PinnerPaul]

Personally, it depends on the sub rules for me. Unlimited roll on/roll off subs, I couldn't care less who starts the game as sub and so as you say, team sheets are only useful for post-match admin.

Games with "proper" subs, I tend to write down the name of any subs on the team sheet in my notebook. When they're preparing to come on, I'll go over and make sure that they are at least prepared to give me one of the correct names. Assuming they do, I'll write down the number of the player they're coming on for next to their name and get on with the match. If they're not a named sub, they don't come on the pitch.

I'm intrigued if anyone uses team sheets to eliminate the need to take a name when issuing a caution? It's obviously what happens in the PL (I can't remember the last time I saw a ref call a player over and ask their name on TV!) - at what level are you allowed to start doing this?

EXCEPT as per LOTG - all subs names MUST be given to the referee before the match, regardless of team sheets or not.

By not asking for them you are not following LOTG.

 

[Will Triffitt]

I'm intrigued if anyone uses team sheets to eliminate the need to take a name when issuing a caution? It's obviously what happens in the PL (I can't remember the last time I saw a ref call a player over and ask their name on TV!) - at what level are you allowed to start doing this?

But they also have names on the backs of shirts. As long as you have written down all the names and numbers before hand, your ok!

 

[YorkshireReferee]

But they also have names on the backs of shirts. As long as you have written down all the names and numbers before hand, your ok!

I've literally never refereed a team with names on their shirts and that's up to and including the contrib teams I've officiated.

 

[GraemeS]

EXCEPT as per LOTG - all subs names MUST be given to the referee before the match, regardless of team sheets or not.

By not asking for them you are not following LOTG.

I couldn't care less to be honest - it's roll on roll off subs (which the LOTG is not written properly to account for), so attempting to monitor who comes on is a complete waste of time. And I'm not required to report who plays to the league in any way in the league I reference before, so what's the point?

 

[Darius]

I call them the naughty boy list.

You tend to not use them until someone is a naughty boy....

 

[YorkshireReferee]

I couldn't care less to be honest - it's roll on roll off subs (which the LOTG is not written properly to account for), so attempting to monitor who comes on is a complete waste of time. And I'm not required to report who plays to the league in any way in the league I reference before, so what's the point?

Regardless of roll-on roll-off, each team is required to provide the names of the players who can roll on and off. It's roll-on roll-off between the starting 11 and named subs.

 

[McTavish]

There's ALWAYS a technical area, even if it isn't marked out outside the field of play.

From the 16-17 Laws:

So... you have your technical area, even if unmarked, and thus, anyone within that area has to be identified.

So... my prior comment still holds.

In short -- if they're in the technical area, then they are not outside agents, but are on the "team list".

There is not always a technical area - what you have written just defines what the technical area should be if it exists.:

From the LOTG:
9. The technical area
The technical area relates to matches played in stadiums with a designated seated area for team officials and substitutes .