The Ref Stop

Are Team Sheets Mandatory under the LOTG?

M

McTavish

Well-Known Member
There have been several threads concerning team sheets - some leagues require them, some don't. I was browsing through the LOTG this afternoon (as you do) and came across this which I had never really thought about before:
Anyone not named on the team list as a player, substitute or team official is deemed to be an outside agent.

There are also several changes under the law re-write concerning what happens to people (including coaches etc) who are or are not on the "team list".
So the question is: if you don't have team sheets are all the players technically "outside agents"? Are team sheets therefore mandatory? Or is there a difference between a "team list" and a team sheet?
 
The Ref Stop
There are always team sheets, every league requires to know what players have played when.

The difference is whether or not team sheets have to be presented to the referee or not, and that is dependent on 'competition rules'.
 
If the league does not require team sheets, the two managers will give you the names of the substitutes, anyone not named is not allowed onto the field of play (as a player) and therefore an outside agent........
 
... but what do you do with 'em?

First few games I did were friendlies, no team sheets, but now the season proper has started last couple of games Ive been handed team sheets by the managers. I've accepted the graciously, pretended to study them before folding them up and popping in my pocket. At the end of the game I've binned them.

Should I be using them for something? I figure if I give a card, I can (after the game) check that the name given me my the player is on the teamsheet, but I cant imagine getting out a flimsy bit of A4 paper in the middle of a windy pitch ...
 
RefJef said:
... but what do you do with 'em?

First few games I did were friendlies, no team sheets, but now the season proper has started last couple of games Ive been handed team sheets by the managers. I've accepted the graciously, pretended to study them before folding them up and popping in my pocket. At the end of the game I've binned them.

Should I be using them for something? I figure if I give a card, I can (after the game) check that the name given me my the player is on the teamsheet, but I cant imagine getting out a flimsy bit of A4 paper in the middle of a windy pitch ...
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It should be in the competition rules or guidance from the league. Some ask that you send them to the RefsSec after the game, although these days most ask that you keep them for a period of time ranging between 3 months and until the end of the season.

The reason for this is in case of arguments about player eligibility. The clubs will have their copies but they could have been doctored, so the only guaranteed copies of the team sheet are those given to the referee prior to the game by both teams. Certainly at senior levels referees are expected to keep the team sheets for the entire season.
 
RefJef said:
... but what do you do with 'em?

First few games I did were friendlies, no team sheets, but now the season proper has started last couple of games Ive been handed team sheets by the managers. I've accepted the graciously, pretended to study them before folding them up and popping in my pocket. At the end of the game I've binned them.

Should I be using them for something? I figure if I give a card, I can (after the game) check that the name given me my the player is on the teamsheet, but I cant imagine getting out a flimsy bit of A4 paper in the middle of a windy pitch ...
Click to expand...
Personally, it depends on the sub rules for me. Unlimited roll on/roll off subs, I couldn't care less who starts the game as sub and so as you say, team sheets are only useful for post-match admin.

Games with "proper" subs, I tend to write down the name of any subs on the team sheet in my notebook. When they're preparing to come on, I'll go over and make sure that they are at least prepared to give me one of the correct names. Assuming they do, I'll write down the number of the player they're coming on for next to their name and get on with the match. If they're not a named sub, they don't come on the pitch.

I'm intrigued if anyone uses team sheets to eliminate the need to take a name when issuing a caution? It's obviously what happens in the PL (I can't remember the last time I saw a ref call a player over and ask their name on TV!) - at what level are you allowed to start doing this?
 
RefJef said:
Should I be using them for something?
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Write all the names in your book against the corresponding number which makes cautions, dismissals and substitutions much easier (i.e. quicker) and then keep them until the end of the season in case you get a query about them.
 
Team sheets at supply league level supply the following information:

1) Players - who's starting, who's on the bench (write those one downs if you're senior assistant), what number each is etc...
2) Technical area - who's in the technical area? (i.e. who shouldn't be there). Importantly, who is the physio? I also take this opportunity to make note of the manager's names if not already known, to allow personal conversations.
3) Captains - who's the captain? I like to know beforehand, to allow me to greet captains by name at the coin toss.
4) Kit colour - are there five different kit colours (ref, home team, home goalkeeper, away team, away goalkeeper)

Even if your team sheets do not have areas for the above, they are questions to ask and put on the sheets manually, to ensure you've got everything covered.

At substitutions, the senior assistant will check the substitute coming on (take name, check equipment), make a note of the player who's leaving number, and the time of the substitute.

Team sheets I will hold onto, and, if required, scan a copy to the appropriate personnel (depending on league rules)
 
GraemeS said:
Personally, it depends on the sub rules for me. Unlimited roll on/roll off subs, I couldn't care less who starts the game as sub and so as you say, team sheets are only useful for post-match admin.

Games with "proper" subs, I tend to write down the name of any subs on the team sheet in my notebook. When they're preparing to come on, I'll go over and make sure that they are at least prepared to give me one of the correct names. Assuming they do, I'll write down the number of the player they're coming on for next to their name and get on with the match. If they're not a named sub, they don't come on the pitch.

I'm intrigued if anyone uses team sheets to eliminate the need to take a name when issuing a caution? It's obviously what happens in the PL (I can't remember the last time I saw a ref call a player over and ask their name on TV!) - at what level are you allowed to start doing this?
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I certainly did that when I was a level 3, and to a lesser extent a 4. Team sheets at those levels are unlikely to be wrong, and even if they are it will likely be spotted when you hand the "crime sheets" to the secretaries after the game and they see that the wrong player names are listed.
 
drahc said:
Team sheets at supply league level supply the following information:

1) Players - who's starting, who's on the bench (write those one downs if you're senior assistant), what number each is etc...
2) Technical area - who's in the technical area? (i.e. who shouldn't be there). Importantly, who is the physio? I also take this opportunity to make note of the manager's names if not already known, to allow personal conversations.
3) Captains - who's the captain? I like to know beforehand, to allow me to greet captains by name at the coin toss.
4) Kit colour - are there five different kit colours (ref, home team, home goalkeeper, away team, away goalkeeper)

Even if your team sheets do not have areas for the above, they are questions to ask and put on the sheets manually, to ensure you've got everything covered.

At substitutions, the senior assistant will check the substitute coming on (take name, check equipment), make a note of the player who's leaving number, and the time of the substitute.

Team sheets I will hold onto, and, if required, scan a copy to the appropriate personnel (depending on league rules)
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@RefJef is a level 9. While your info is useful at level 4, it's not being directed at an appropriate level for the audience.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
@RefJef is a level 9. While your info is useful at level 4, it's not being directed at an appropriate level for the audience.
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I agree that information regarding technical areas / physios is irrelevant (apologies!). Information pertaining to players, captains and kit colour however, is applicable for all levels of the game. Identifying the latter during team sheets prevents unnecessary delays before kick off.
 
drahc said:
I agree that information regarding technical areas / physios is irrelevant (apologies!). Information pertaining to players, captains and kit colour however, is applicable for all levels of the game. Identifying the latter during team sheets prevents unnecessary delays before kick off.
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It's unlikely the team sheets he gets give more than the team name, date and name /number of players. It's unlikely to quote colours.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
It's unlikely the team sheets he gets give more than the team name, date and name /number of players. It's unlikely to quote colours.
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Brian - indeed, hence my comment "Even if your team sheets do not have areas for the above, they are questions to ask and put on the sheets manually, to ensure you've got everything covered."
 
Have just fished one (team sheet) out of the bin from my game on Thursday evening. Does include colours, but I look at the players and can see that!

Does also say "Yellow copy to the referee 15 mins prior to the start of the match" Given that the opposition were a little late (stuck behind a tractor - the perils of Somerset soccer!), it was an evening kick off and we needed to get started or we'd lose the light, I got one copy about 5 mins before we kicked off, as the away tema piled out of their cars.

Have just noticed one of the sheets only lists 10 players (+ 3 subs) - there was 11 on the pitch at kick off (I always count them.)

Oh well, it was a good game, U16s. I had a mentor/observor and he was happy.

Glad I asked about the team sheets - I'll hang on to them from now on.
 
GraemeS said:
I'm intrigued if anyone uses team sheets to eliminate the need to take a name when issuing a caution? It's obviously what happens in the PL (I can't remember the last time I saw a ref call a player over and ask their name on TV!) - at what level are you allowed to start doing this?
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That's how it works in Australia at all levels.
 
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CapnBloodbeard said:
That's how it works in Australia at all levels.
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We are very definitely taught that the "correct procedure" is to pull the player to one side, take his name, check the spelling and then show the card. Combinations of my awful handwriting and awful British weather have definitely led to me relying on team sheets before, but that's not how we're "supposed" to do it I'm sure.
 
GraemeS said:
We are very definitely taught that the "correct procedure" is to pull the player to one side, take his name, check the spelling and then show the card. Combinations of my awful handwriting and awful British weather have definitely led to me relying on team sheets before, but that's not how we're "supposed" to do it I'm sure.
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The LOTG doesn't care either way. It's practice in England, not in Australia.
 
RegalRef said:
There are always team sheets, every league requires to know what players have played when.

The difference is whether or not team sheets have to be presented to the referee or not, and that is dependent on 'competition rules'.
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My point is that although I have always accepted that "competition rules" decide whether a team sheet needs to be submitted or not, it seems that the LOTG actually require a team sheet and it is not down to competition rules, particularly when taking in to account some of the laws in this year's revised edition.

For example:
A player who is sent off: before submission of the team list can not be named on the team list in any capacity.

This must refer to a list supplied at the start of the game or else it is completely meaningless and so all references to "team list" must also refer to a list (or team sheet) submitted at the start of each game. Hence, according to the LOTG, unless a team sheet is submitted all players are "outside agents"...:)
 
Maybe we could add this to example #97 of how the new LOTG clearly weren't proofread before release?
Or perhaps the clause noted above is simply inapplicable when there is no team list (which doesn't cause any problems in interpreting that clause).
I actually find it strange that IFAB have chosen to include in the LOTG what is essentially an administrative concern.
 
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