Runner Ref
Well-Known Member
The problem is, I don’t think this is possible. Football is too grey for this
Ball in & out, and offsides to a degree can be black and white. Everything else is grey
An Honest VAR Discussion
- Thread starter Runner Ref
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Ball in & out, and offsides to a degree can be black and white. Everything else is grey
It has been staring them in the face since they first imagined it yet went for this “this’ll fix everything” narrative, completely forgetting that a) humans are watching it, b) time exists, and c) no one who has paid to attend knows what the hell’s going on.
Great system until a team challenges, the VAR/on field come to a decision that fans/pundits/the challenging team decides is wrong/inconsistent and then they lose a challenge. Later in the same game they have no challenge when a penalty or other error is missed.
That argument is lame though
'It was sh1t, it's now a lot sh1tter, so we can't go back to plain old sh1t'. Why not?
I recall everyone banging on about technology and rightly so
However, nobody gave it much thought as to what 'technology' represented. Nobody could've envisaged what we've ended up with, nor could anyone have really understood how VAR would interact with the complex dynamics of the game
So I don't think anyone did 'vote' for what we've got. I don't think anyone knew what they wanted or what they'd get
Besides, it's all pie in the sky. It makes no difference whatsoever what we want (spectators/fans/pundits/players/coaches etc), it's the top level clubs who decide on what we get... and they only have one clear motivation... commercial/finance/money... call it what you will. Nothing else matters and we're truly stuck with futile efforts to improve what we've got. Except that SAOS will make a difference, once the EPL solves the addidas/nike ball debacle
I think the bias against VAR amongst most fans means any contentious decision gets highlighted even more and we forget all the decision it has rightly corrected. PGMOL posted the stats in the summer in how decisions are more accurate now because of VAR so when you get stats like that then you have to keep it.
Despite getting mocked by some, I do think the mic'd up show is beneficial in how certain decisions are made and the day we hear the audio all the time when a referee is at the monitor can only help things.
I do think referees need to be more brave to stick with their original call if they are deep down not convinced but VAR rejecting an review should be infrequent but not virtually not happening at all.
Not a fan of a challenge system really, you open the can of worms of referee/big club bias if he accepts a challenge from one team but rejects one from the other team.
Despite getting mocked by some, I do think the mic'd up show is beneficial in how certain decisions are made and the day we hear the audio all the time when a referee is at the monitor can only help things.
I do think referees need to be more brave to stick with their original call if they are deep down not convinced but VAR rejecting an review should be infrequent but not virtually not happening at all.
Not a fan of a challenge system really, you open the can of worms of referee/big club bias if he accepts a challenge from one team but rejects one from the other team.
There are easy fixes to this issue. And regardless, in any other sport when this happens, it's always seen as the team's fault rather than the officials.
Runner Ref
Well-Known Member
But at least the team has had their voice/opinion heard. As long as it is made clear what can be challenged and clubs are advised to educate themselves a bit better on aspects of law, it gives them an element of control. Which is something they all want.
Runner Ref
Well-Known Member
But when you say they’re more accurate, how is that being judged? You can provided stats for black & white matters, but stats for grey areas are merely opinions rather than facts.
For your last point, you could say that about any refereeing situation. If anything it would help as clubs would be more likely to clue themselves up on laws. Or better yet, employ an ex-referee who could advise them. This is where MC could have worked out for Forest
Different in other sports though as the decisions are almost always black and white, if a captain or manager initiates an appeal and wastes it they get the blame. The majority of football decisions aren't, as we regularly see, even close to black and white. So we are likely to have situations where a team appeals, football expects (rightly or otherwise) that their appeal should succeed, but the referee or someone in VAR, whoever is responsible for judging the review, sticks with the original decision. In this case the captains or managers will be seen as the victims and the match officials the villains.
I don't understand why every time I mention a challenge system, people are so creative at coming up with problems and simultaneously so uncreative when it come to trying to fix them. Have you tried to think about how to solve this problem or have you skipped that in favour of telling me I'm wrong?
Cricket has 3 possible outcomes to a review. If the decision is upheld on the basis of the "umpires review" grey area, it's unchanged but the team keeps the review. Easy to apply this principal to football.
I'm not saying you're wrong, rather I think a challenge system brings potential issues just as the current system does. Just an opinion, and no one can possibly argue that decisions in football are way more subjective than other sports.
Of course it has potential issues. But it's only mention of a challenge system that seems to provoke people into throwing up their hands and going "you haven't preemptively solved every single issue so it will never work" rather than actually trying to think about it.
Runner Ref
Well-Known Member
To take a step back and think why we have VAR; the whole point was to stop absolute clangers, rather than the micromanagement of VAR, followed by the complete opposite.
Going through the history of football, are there 10 absolute clangers that justify VAR? I can think of Hand of God, Henry vs Ireland & the 1966 cup final.
Are there others?
Lots. Lampard vs Germany, although GLT would have fixed this. The phantom goal awarded by Stuart Attwell at Watford. Ben Thatcher's assault on Pedro Mendes. Poll's 3 card trick, although not sure if VAR could have prevented this. Schumacher vs Battiston, arguably the worst ever missed red card. Andre Marriner sending off Gibbs instead of Oxlade-Chamberlain for DOGSO-H. That's just from a quick brainstorm and there are undoubtedly many more, but I do agree with the concept that VAR interventions should be few and far between.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
Howard Webb missing the red card kick to the stomach in the 2010 World Cup Final. England being denied 2 perfectly good goals for "fouls" against Argentina (World Cup 98) and Portugal (can't remember if it was World Cup 2006 or Euro 2004). Plenty out there ...
Runner Ref
Well-Known Member
So if we take out Lampard vs Germany, Hurst vs Germany & Mendes vs Utd as they would be covered by GLT rather than VAR; we’ve completely overhauled football for what are pretty rare refereeing clangers.
I never wanted VAR and still don’t, but appreciate that it’s not going anywhere any time soon. But they have to revamp it, as it can’t keep going on as it is. And I don’t think it’s a PGMOL issue either, as other countries are having issues in the same way we do (Scotland included!!)
I never wanted VAR and still don’t, but appreciate that it’s not going anywhere any time soon. But they have to revamp it, as it can’t keep going on as it is. And I don’t think it’s a PGMOL issue either, as other countries are having issues in the same way we do (Scotland included!!)
Kes
I'll Decide ...
Actually no.
The instances in my last post are only 3 that would/could have had major impact on matches at the highest level had VAR been available. There'll be many more out there if one can be bothered to search.
For me, VAR is a good thing since referees are human but the camera isn't.