Seem to recall AT doing it in the Euros
Wolves vs City
- Thread starter WillH
- Start date
Given my understanding is that you operate at a higher level of the game to myself, I'll bow to your superior knowledge of what is / isn't expected, but I disagree that it looks amateurish. Part of our job is communicating to everyone, and all he would be doing by going over is communicating to everyone that he is communicating with his AR.
I agree almost with everything Gary O'Neil has said to the media this week. Unconscious Bias stuff
He's been very measured all things considered
I've been guilty of it myself. I had a top v bottom scenario at Step 5 the season before last. When I considered the game in hindsight, it made me aware of how much easier it is/was to give decisions against the 'minnows'. You either take the path of least resistance and sink the strugglers, or you're aware of such sub-conscious bias and become a maverick with brave and wrong decisions against big boys. The latter is worse than the former as far as the referee's blood pressure is concerned so guess which path is taken more often than not?
Human Beings are not able to eliminate their bias, one way or the other. Trying to do so risks making matters worse
He's been very measured all things considered
I've been guilty of it myself. I had a top v bottom scenario at Step 5 the season before last. When I considered the game in hindsight, it made me aware of how much easier it is/was to give decisions against the 'minnows'. You either take the path of least resistance and sink the strugglers, or you're aware of such sub-conscious bias and become a maverick with brave and wrong decisions against big boys. The latter is worse than the former as far as the referee's blood pressure is concerned so guess which path is taken more often than not?
Human Beings are not able to eliminate their bias, one way or the other. Trying to do so risks making matters worse
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Of course humans are able to eliminate bias - perhaps not 100%, but close to it. You have been very honest concerning your top v bottom game, and you deserve credit for reflecting upon it to aide your personal development. I can place my hand on my heart & say of all the hundreds of games I Refereed, I do not recall any occasion when I felt the same - two teams on the FoP are just that, whoever they are, wherever they are positioned in the league etc etc. What I find very strange is the difference between football and cricket - on one hand we have supporters and Managers etc all very concerned about the teams Referees support and now the possibility of unconscious bias, but in cricket, umpires often umpire teams they used to play for and one in particular used to umpire in the games his son was actually playing in - no one bats an eyelid. It’s all to do with mindset and perhaps other things - unconscious bias towards the Referee perhaps!
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RefGod
Active Member
My view is subjective as an official operating above contrib however, in my experience, EFL coaches/observers would be critical of a referee going over in that situation. It’s incredibly outdated with the usage of comms.
So why did Anthony Taylor do it at the Euro's?
Another example was the Rashford allowed goal V City. Again referee and Assistant enter face to face dialogue?
That's just two that spring to mind.
I'll be honest this is the first time I've heard anyone say this isn't the expected or accepted practice.
RefGod
Active Member
As I said, my views are subjective and anecdotal. Select examples stemming from exceptionalism don’t change that.
My original comment was in this particular circumstance, it looks amateurish for a referee to be speaking side by side with an AR. I have only seen elite coaches question this sort of action and never endorse it.
How do you know? Nobody can be aware of their subconscious in the moment
Such bias can be reduced through awareness and understanding, but it can't be eliminated
I have to referee my kid's football. I've made decisions for and against my son's team that were a direct result of bias I held in the moment. Like most (actually, I'm not sure that's true because many are consciously cheating, so I'll replace 'most' with 'some' parents) will bias against their own side in a subconscious (or conscious) effort to demonstrate fairness
I refereed a semi-challenging (which is why I was asked to do it) Sunday League game two days ago. I gave nothing to the mouthy side in the first 20 minutes not for no reason other than that's just the way it goes sometimes. No doubt my subconscious bias at that time was looking for opportunities to throw that side a bone. I know my subconscious bias redressed the balance of decisions in retrospect
It happens constantly in games. We're influenced continually by a whole myriad of stuff going on. Frequently I'll find myself rooting for one side over the other for one of a million reasons. I could go on......
I merely have awareness. Paradoxically, those who are not so aware, will likely be more biased than me. That's how it works
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That’s my point, unconscious bias can be significantly reduced by awareness, understanding, as well as education. The point made by the Wolves Manager was specific to the big boys v Minnows & if as you say nobody knows what is in their subconscious in the moment, then presumably it cannot be proved one way or the other whether there was unconscious or subconscious bias by the Referee & if it can’t be proved, then best not to say it. Now, if it’s a statement of fact that all humans have this trait, then surely no Referee can be appointed to any game, no Umpires can be appointed to cricket or tennis etc etc, so the whole thing collapses. There has to be an element of trust between club and Referee, as there is in cricket and probably rugby to a certain degree and perhaps other sports, but if there isn’t then we have one big problem on our hands.
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It can be identified by looking at patterns of behaviour. Gary O'Neil is postulating that the pattern of decisions against his side (minnows) suggests subconscious bias but he's been very clear and sensible to categorically rule out intentional bias
Based on my own experience of refereeing (and life), I happen to agree with him to a degree.
Naturally, he hasn't discussed other considerations. For instance, every data distribution of this nature will have outliers. It's an absolute certainty that at least one side must be an outlier. Although I guess his point is that Wolves have really taken a kicking and it's of little surprise his side are a minnow.
Nobody really cares if Wolves motion to ditch VAR, so the status quo is not threatened
Contrary to your assertion that there's referees/umpires are pointless. Of course that's nonsense and I know you don't mean it like that. As individuals and groups, we as Refs/Umpires can only aim to minimise these biases but we'll never achieve neutrality. We may not even get all that close to it IMO. The problem will go away once VAR trends towards AI and we've eventually taken the Referee out the equation. But let's not get into that dystopian future!
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RefIADad
RefChat Addict
In my personal opinion, a side by side conversation is still acceptable and maybe even preferred in this case. Here are a few reasons I have for supporting this.
- As others have said, everyone in the stadium can see you are communicating. That is not an insignificant part of this situation.
- R and AR can isolate themselves and talk in a “normal” manner instead of what is the equivalent of a telephone call.
- If players try to approach/surround the discussion, R can even use the spray to basically say “don’t cross this, or it’s dissent.” I’ve seen this done a few times in matches, and while it looks a little extreme it’s effective.
So it was unconscious bias against the top team that led the referee to give a wrong offside decision that VAR had to correct?
Nobody is talking about individuals making individual decisions. I'm not anyway. I'm interested in long term patterns though
I can talk about my own individual decisions in hindsight with respect to sub-conscious bias, but I can't do so with respect to other Match Officials, about whom I can only speculate in general terms
Going over to converse just puts AR in firing line. As an AR if I wanted that to happen I'd be flagging (or buzzing). On coms:
"Calling AR"
AR here.
Anything wrong?
Player in offside position from header.
Doing anything to be interfering?
Not really, a bit of leaning on keeper who pushed back as the ball came over.
Enough to disallow it for a foul?
Not by what goes on to obstruct keepers at corners these days.
Anyone complaining about decision?
No. Oh wait, look behind you. Manager's watched a replay and is going spare....
I did my best to drag that out for 30 seconds...
So you don't agree with everything Gary O'Neil said...
Gary O'Neil emphasized the pattern of decisions
BTW, aren't you the first to cry 'foul' (such as bias) when anything goes against your side!? Just checking!
I
I think the comments made by the Wolves manager are contradictory in the sense that he complained about the disallowed goal against West Ham last season. Is he saying that Wolves were the minnows here too, because they certainly were not.
Yeh, forgot about that bit of garbage
I was subconsciously listening to the part of the interview I agreed with and didn't hear the nonsense
I can potentially understand subconscious bias in the Premier League, where a referee might be refereeing at Old Trafford with Man Utd playing , for example Brentford. There's going to be a lot of noise and pressure, and it might get to them.
But at step 5, really? It is so transient at that level there is no concept of a big team, it changes every season. How would your subconscious decide whether ****fosters and Milton Keynes Irish who current occupy the top two places are bigger than the likes of Dunstable Town who have operated at a much higher level and have much more history, but sit in the lower part of the league?