A&H

Who supplies the flags?

Just perhaps that's why he isn't a L3 any more, as opposed to the supposedly dodgy observers ... ? 🙂
Southern league South Premier game yesterday. Flags in changing room. The worst kind, plastic, like corner flag plastic, foam handles. So we used the referees which he supplied.
 
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I always bring two sets of flags with me.

The nicer set is for when I work with neutral assistants (which, admittedly in the US, is much more often than my colleagues elsewhere for grassroots games).

The cheaper set is for when I work with club lines. In the US, if we don't have neutral ARs then the "club" ARs only rule on balls over a line. In other words, they only raise their flags when a ball as completely crossed a goal line or touch line.

I always keep these in my bag. I never rely on anyone else to bring flags, and my flags are normally used since they are the larger diamond flags.
 
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Just perhaps that's why he isn't a L3 any more, as opposed to the supposedly dodgy observers ... ? 🙂
I've refereed on grassroots leagues in Surrey where the competition rules state that the home team supply the flags, but since moving to Essex the expectation has generally been that the referee supplies them. If he's a referee operating at lower levels, never as part of a team of 3, in certain areas, you might be able to get away without having flags - although that certainly doesn't mean you CAN'T have a set ready just in case. Even in Surrey I always had my own set, and it was probably still needed around 25% of the time as it's just a really low priority thing for a club to have to worry about when they're getting ready for a game.

But if as you say he's been an L3, then I'm baffled that he claims to have never bought a set of flags. For starters, I've never once turned up as part of a team of 3 and been offered flags by the home team: on all but one occasion, we've used whatever flags the referee turned up with. The only exception was when he realised he'd forgotten to bring his, at which point both me and the other assistant immediately reached into our bags and offered ours (we ended up using mine and I think that might be the only time I've ever actually used my own flags!)

The other consideration is that around half the L4's I've been out with have used buzzers - and the other half are usually either planning to buy a set or can articulate why they've decided not to yet. I'm surprised if they're not near-mandatory by the time you're doing middles at L3? I can't imagine any clubs supplying a set of buzzer flags - and I'm not sure I'd trust their condition and batteries if I was offered a set!
 
In the US, if we don't have neutral ARs then the "club" ARs only rule on balls over a line. In other words, then only raise their flags when a ball as completely crossed a goal line or touch line.

It is the same in my area. I do the same as you, crap flags for club lines, because some of the abuse the flags gets is out of order tbh.
 
The logic of comparing flags with match ball bothers me. A ball is clearly an equipment for players to use in the game, hence supplied by players or clubs. A flag is an equipment used by referees hence should be supplied by referees.

Also the logic that referees don't have to have a flag because it is not their compulsuary equipment is flawed. A ball is not a player compulsuary equipment either, yet they provide it.
 
I gave up bringing and getting them chucked on the floor, ended up not even bothering to ask. Caused more issues when they helped! Safer refereeing at the Dog & Duck
 
The logic of comparing flags with match ball bothers me. A ball is clearly an equipment for players to use in the game, hence supplied by players or clubs. A flag is an equipment used by referees hence should be supplied by referees.

Also the logic that referees don't have to have a flag because it is not their compulsuary equipment is flawed. A ball is not a player compulsuary equipment either, yet they provide it.
Its compulsory for the game and is legislated in the Competition rules.
Example here the comp rules state usually state the home team should provide x number of match balls.
I have recently discovered that the Comp rules state home team should supply flags.
It not being compulsory equipment isn't the argument in terms of lotg. However the comp rules are mandating who is responsiblefor their supply and the penalty for not doing so.
 
Which is fine if the comp rules state it. Who supplies the flag or the ball is not in the lotg and the lotg can't be quoted to justify who supplies it. They are both required for the game and that is where it stops. If the comp rules don't specify, then it falls back on whomever uses them, provides them. That is just common sense to me.
 
Its compulsory for the game and is legislated in the Competition rules.
Example here the comp rules state usually state the home team should provide x number of match balls.
I have recently discovered that the Comp rules state home team should supply flags.
It not being compulsory equipment isn't the argument in terms of lotg. However the comp rules are mandating who is responsiblefor their supply and the penalty for not doing so.
But what if they just choose to accept the penalty? There's a famous freakanomics study to do with a daycare where they found that introducing a fine on late pickups actually had the effect of increasing the number of parents who were late. The fine simply became a legitimate "price" that they could choose to pay in exchange for an extra half-hour. Wheras without that fine, the main incentive was that running late delayed the end of work for the carers - meaning that you were being a dickhead to the people looking after your kids.

Similarly, putting a ÂŁ10 fine on not supplying flags simply makes that a cost/benefit decision that some managers will make. Maybe they've left the flags at home, realise half way to the ground and decide to just take the penalty rather than turn round, arrive late and throw off all their other pre-match prep. Maybe they even make a conscious decision not to spend the money to buy a set at the start of the season (or to replace them if they're lost), gambling that the vast majority of ref's won't bother to report it and they'll end up spending less in fines than they would on a decent ÂŁ30-ÂŁ40 set of flags.

Either way, I think we all know that the correct thing to do in this situation is to report the lack of flags, then pull your own out and get on with the game. I'd argue that lack of flags goes alongside corner flags as a "spirit of the game" issue, in that it shouldn't really be causing a delay of game. I've seen matches where a sub runs along a line with a bib to wave - it looks awful and shouldn't be needed at the level where you're using NAR's, but if none of the officials have taken a common sense approach and turned up with their own flags, I think the referee should just get on with it in that manner.
 
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But what if they just choose to accept the penalty? There's a famous freakanomics study to do with a daycare where they found that introducing a fine on late pickups actually had the effect of increasing the number of parents who were late. The fine simply became a legitimate "price" that they could choose to pay in exchange for an extra half-hour. Wheras without that fine, the main incentive was that running late delayed the end of work for the carers - meaning that you were being a dickhead to the people looking after your kids.

Similarly, putting a ÂŁ10 fine on not supplying flags simply makes that a cost/benefit decision that some managers will make. Maybe they've left the flags at home, realise half way to the ground and decide to just take the penalty rather than turn round, arrive late and throw off all their other pre-match prep. Maybe they even make a conscious decision not to spend the money to buy a set at the start of the season (or to replace them if they're lost), gambling that the vast majority of ref's won't bother to report it and they'll end up spending less in fines than they would on a decent ÂŁ30-ÂŁ40 set of flags.

Either way, I think we all know that the correct thing to do in this situation is to report the lack of flags, then pull your own out and get on with the game. I'd argue that lack of flags goes alongside corner flags as a "spirit of the game" issue, in that it shouldn't really be causing a delay of game. I've seen matches where a sub runs along a line with a bib to wave - it looks awful and shouldn't be needed at the level where you're using NAR's, but if none of the officials have taken a common sense approach and turned up with your own flags, I think you should just get on with it in that manner.
Woah. Chill Graham. I am in favour of refs carrying their own flags.
 
I gave up bringing and getting them chucked on the floor, ended up not even bothering to ask. Caused more issues when they helped! Safer refereeing at the Dog & Duck

No CARs in Sheffield League's and it's better that way. When I've crossed over into Donactser for County Cup games they expect CARs. It's just easier without them.
 
Woah. Chill Graham. I am in favour of refs carrying their own flags.
That absolutely wasn't meant to come across as me getting annoyed at you, so apologies if it did! In hindsight and reading it back, I should have used the terms "they should " or even "one should" rather than keeping the "you" in.

I will admit to being a little frustrated by the idea that refs would delay a game because they haven't brought their own flags - I think it plays up to the stereotype of us all as officious busybodies. But I definitely didn't intend for it to come across as if I was criticising you for that, more a general comment and one regarding this renegade ref.
 
That absolutely wasn't meant to come across as me getting annoyed at you, so apologies if it did! In hindsight and reading it back, I should have used the terms "they should " or even "one should" rather than keeping the "you" in.

I will admit to being a little frustrated by the idea that refs would delay a game because they haven't brought their own flags - I think it plays up to the stereotype of us all as officious busybodies. But I definitely didn't intend for it to come across as if I was criticising you for that, more a general comment and one regarding this renegade ref.
No danger. I thought you had misread me in my reply.
Have to admit I have learnt something from it all but nothing that I will use. I will continue to provide my own flags and I won't be checking to see that any have been provided from elsewhere.
 
I gave up bringing and getting them chucked on the floor, ended up not even bothering to ask. Caused more issues when they helped! Safer refereeing at the Dog & Duck
Depends where you are though. The leagues I referee on state that CAR's must be supplied or face a fine, so I always buy cheapest of the cheap flags for that very reason
 
The ref concerned is now stating that the match wasn't delayed by the lack of flags, even though there are pictures of them using bibs instead and many comments regarding the delay.
 
The ref concerned is now stating that the match wasn't delayed by the lack of flags, even though there are pictures of them using bibs instead and many comments regarding the delay.
My take-away from all of this is: the general public won't care whose responsibility it is to bring flags. If a game is delayed because a lino doesn't have a flag it will look bad on your team so take a set. It won't hurt and you won't be having petty arguments for the next month+
 
It is the same in my area. I do the same as you, crap flags for club lines, because some of the abuse the flags gets is out of order tbh.

I know that every country has different answers for the role of club ARs. It's probably more accepted in the UK that club lines can rule on offside. In the US, our club ARs are only helping us with a ball over the line. Every other decision - including offside - is the center's responsibility. I always bring my officiating gear to my son's matches in the event there's a no-show or injury and I have to step in as an AR. If I wasn't in uniform, I would technically be a club line and could only rule on balls in and out of play. Once I'm in uniform, I have full AR duties.

When I use club ARs, my instructions are very simple. I put one at each corner flag on the same diagonal, and I tell them raise your flag when the ball is completely over the goal line or touch line on which you are standing. That's it. I will take care of everything else.

Truth be told, I'd rather not have club ARs call offside. I know I'll miss some offside calls working by myself, but I would much rather have a team mad at me for missing an offside than start to berate a club AR. During the games where I've called them myself, I just tell the captains that I won't call offside unless I'm 100% sure of it and that I'll do my best to get into position. However, my primary responsibility is player safety and calling fouls to protect players.
 
I know that every country has different answers for the role of club ARs. It's probably more accepted in the UK that club lines can rule on offside. In the US, our club ARs are only helping us with a ball over the line. Every other decision - including offside - is the center's responsibility. I always bring my officiating gear to my son's matches in the event there's a no-show or injury and I have to step in as an AR. If I wasn't in uniform, I would technically be a club line and could only rule on balls in and out of play. Once I'm in uniform, I have full AR duties.

Club lines can't rule on offside in Wales.

I was more talking about the abuse my flags and flagsticks get from the club lines when decisions don't go their way.

Had to tick one guy off because at half time he stuck my flag into the ground like a flagpole... :mad:
 
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