RefSix

Verbal Unsporting Behaviour?

That's such a strange attitude. I remember when Mignolet got penalised for it in the CL - all the criticism was levelled at the player for taking too long and ignoring the warnings, the referee was praised
Not saying I agree - as I've mentioned before at some Championship games we're up to 20 seconds sometimes before GK releases - never see it penalised in top 4 divs here though do we?
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
I was in the same room. The context that I inferred was; the PGMOL can't have one loose cannon doing something different from everyone else, even if the loose cannon was doing that thing right
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
On a similar note I was 4th official to an SG1 assistant referee not long after he returned from suspension after he ruled, incorrectly it transpired, that Pepe Reina had handled a drop kick outside of the area and Bolton scored from the free kick. His pre-match instructions included the line "if you think the keeper carried the drop kick outside of the area don't be a c*** like me and instead keep your flag down".

You don't get backed for sticking your head above the parapet, rather it invariably gets shot off.
 
I was in the same room. The context that I inferred was; the PGMOL can't have one loose cannon doing something different from everyone else, even if the loose cannon was doing that thing right
That's spot on - if the norm is 20 seconds and no one gets punished for it - its pretty brave/stupid to be that one referee that one week that starts giving out IDFKs left, right and centre!
 
On a similar note I was 4th official to an SG1 assistant referee not long after he returned from suspension after he ruled, incorrectly it transpired, that Pepe Reina had handled a drop kick outside of the area and Bolton scored from the free kick. His pre-match instructions included the line "if you think the keeper carried the drop kick outside of the area don't be a c*** like me and instead keep your flag down".

You don't get backed for sticking your head above the parapet, rather it invariably gets shot off.

Spot on - I think the 'judgement' calls are what beginners struggle with - things that are NOT in the book - no appeal, no penalty, waiting a few seconds to see which way players go for corners/GKs/throws - that sort of thing
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
Spot on - I think the 'judgement' calls are what beginners struggle with - things that are NOT in the book - no appeal, no penalty, waiting a few seconds to see which way players go for corners/GKs/throws - that sort of thing
Yes, the best referees don't just know the laws, they know how to apply them.
 

RobOda

RefChat Addict
Just follow the book until you get to a level where they start telling you to stop being fussy I suppose. Won't argue the issue, there's a clear distinction in how they expect people to officiate at the higher tiers vs grassroots. They tell you this in training now as well anyway.
 

JH

RefChat Addict
I'd rather get the decision right first time :)
You aren't going to get it right every time and you need to know how to deal with it when you don't.
I'd rather consistency :) So does every player, manager, fan and pundit apparently ;)
Can't remember what game it was but we watched a clip recently (national league I think) of a player returning the ball to opposition GK after an injury, looped over his head and went in...

Cue 22 players pushing and shoving, managers on the pitch, can't remember a card count but it stopped the game for 5-10 mins.

I assure you, no player, manager, fan or pundit would have praised the referee for allowing the goal.
 

JH

RefChat Addict
I was in the same room. The context that I inferred was; the PGMOL can't have one loose cannon doing something different from everyone else, even if the loose cannon was doing that thing right
Things like this can only be changed by the PGMOL/Premier League coming out before the first games of a new season and saying 'this is how it's going to be', then when that first Saturday rolls around, every referee in every game is punishing the goalkeepers for taking 10 seconds or however long they take. It just wouldn't happen and would cause too much controversy for them.
 
Things like this can only be changed by the PGMOL/Premier League coming out before the first games of a new season and saying 'this is how it's going to be', then when that first Saturday rolls around, every referee in every game is punishing the goalkeepers for taking 10 seconds or however long they take. It just wouldn't happen and would cause too much controversy for them.
IMHO if (big if) they (they) want this to actually be a genuine law then a count with the fingers a la futsal would immediately solve it.
Given they (they) just don't want this law to be implemented, they (they) should remove it from the book.
 
The reality is that the Premiership will always be officiated differently as it's a commercial product and the man in the middle is trying to control an Event not just a match.

Foul throws, goal keepers releasing etc won't be picked upon as it slows down the game.

Doesn't make it easy when I rock up on a Saturday and Big Dave thinks he knows better as he's seen it on the TV. I simply say "if you want to play by those rules then sign up for City/United... I've heard they have trials on Monday"
 
Foul throws, goal keepers releasing etc won't be picked upon as it slows down the game.
Or perhaps because the referees at that level understand the concept of trifling.

I'll join the camp of never have and never will call 6 seconds. (With the same implicit caveat that I would presume underlay the comment that was made--if I warn the GK and he blatantly ignores, well at that point he's asked me to make that call and I'll oblige him.)
 

one

RefChat Addict
I have said this many time before, one can not invent new rules/laws or completely ignore existing ones in the name of match control. And I am pretty pi$$ed off with IFAB and top flight referees for the 6 second rule which gives an excuse to every referee who is ignorant of other laws. I have lost count of the number times referees who misapply the laws use to the 6 second law as an excuse.

I have seen referees (many times) knowingly give an IFK for dissent without cautioning (or sin bin) because it helps their match control as they are unable to control the backlash if they cautioned, but they still want to punish dissent. IFK for handball which is too harsh to be a PK, retake of a kick which should be a caution for not respecting distance, retake of a TI that should be given to the other side... the list goes on.

If a referee is unable to deal with any consequences of making the correct decision in a certain level of games, then perhaps that level of game is not the right level for them. To add to that, if you are willing to compromise your application of LOTG (the word 'integrity' was tempting but it would not be the right word) because players misbehave on correct decisions, then all you are doing is encouraging poor behaviours and becoming LWR. Compare the attitude of rugby player towards referees to football. We are not blameless in the way football referees are not respected amongst many fans and players.

I am not talking about blindly following the exact wording of the lotg. In many cases the laws have left determination/decision in a grey area and the referee can use their discretion to determine something one way or other. But when the law is black and white, you have to make the correct decision and deal with he consequence as it comes.

Rant over.
 

markref

Well-Known Member
I couldn’t agree more One. Unfortunately at real grass roots level they often struggle to get a referee at all, never mind one with enough experience to do games in all divisions.
I found out this morning I have my first hearing in many years coming up and it’s because we don’t have enough experienced refs to clamp down on troublemakers.
I had a game two weeks ago between the top two teams in the league - one of the teams is no problem, but the other is a nightmare.
I penalised dangerous play by one of the team at which the captain came up “to talk“ He kept going even when told to stop because “I’m the captain, I’m allowed to talk to you!” and was sin binned after going too far. As he walked off he turned and yelled some really choice language at me and was sent off. He then threatened me, again using foul language.
The team were told if he didn’t go the game would be abandoned so eventually he went but not before again yelling at me and kicking the match ball away. He got changed and came back to carry on later on.
I sent another one off for the team before sin binning another player, and then another made similar comments while he walked off so he was sin binned as well. The team were down to 7 on the pitch (they tried to sneak a sub on at this point to give them 8 men but I spotted this!)
The team had another couple of cautions for fouls and actually walked off because I was being mean to them! The captain had come back and carried on threatening me, being joined in this by several others. I’ve reported the captain for misconduct as well as the red. The club have been reported for failure to control and causing abandonment. I didn’t see who was making the threatening comments so couldn’t send them as well but their comments were reported.
I abandoned the game when they walked off.
The club accepted the charges but the captain has appealed! Unfortunately he got away with one the end of last season when banned sine die for spitting at a colleague so thinks he might again.
The trouble is that the players get away with this usually so don’t know when to stop when I won’t tolerate it. We don’t have enough experienced refs to enforce law appropriately so the clubs actually told the league they wanted the refs to show more cards because players were getting hurt!
Unfortunately the professional game does us no favours because the players see their heroes getting away with it so think they should as well. In addition newer refs also think they should just ignore it so a few of us are left to pick up the pieces.
 
I couldn’t agree more One. Unfortunately at real grass roots level they often struggle to get a referee at all, never mind one with enough experience to do games in all divisions.
I found out this morning I have my first hearing in many years coming up and it’s because we don’t have enough experienced refs to clamp down on troublemakers.
I had a game two weeks ago between the top two teams in the league - one of the teams is no problem, but the other is a nightmare.
I penalised dangerous play by one of the team at which the captain came up “to talk“ He kept going even when told to stop because “I’m the captain, I’m allowed to talk to you!” and was sin binned after going too far. As he walked off he turned and yelled some really choice language at me and was sent off. He then threatened me, again using foul language.
The team were told if he didn’t go the game would be abandoned so eventually he went but not before again yelling at me and kicking the match ball away. He got changed and came back to carry on later on.
I sent another one off for the team before sin binning another player, and then another made similar comments while he walked off so he was sin binned as well. The team were down to 7 on the pitch (they tried to sneak a sub on at this point to give them 8 men but I spotted this!)
The team had another couple of cautions for fouls and actually walked off because I was being mean to them! The captain had come back and carried on threatening me, being joined in this by several others. I’ve reported the captain for misconduct as well as the red. The club have been reported for failure to control and causing abandonment. I didn’t see who was making the threatening comments so couldn’t send them as well but their comments were reported.
I abandoned the game when they walked off.
The club accepted the charges but the captain has appealed! Unfortunately he got away with one the end of last season when banned sine die for spitting at a colleague so thinks he might again.
The trouble is that the players get away with this usually so don’t know when to stop when I won’t tolerate it. We don’t have enough experienced refs to enforce law appropriately so the clubs actually told the league they wanted the refs to show more cards because players were getting hurt!
Unfortunately the professional game does us no favours because the players see their heroes getting away with it so think they should as well. In addition newer refs also think they should just ignore it so a few of us are left to pick up the pieces.
^^I have a lot of sympathy for this^^

With the below I am specifically writing about Grassroots:

I'm only just starting out as a ref and I am realising that my tolerance level and knowledge (or lack of) doesn't just affect my game but the games of those that come after me. The dissent I've had so far I've given some leeway to as I'm still learning. In my last game I probably should have given a sin bin but left it as a strong word with player and captain. Equally I've given a free kick for ball hitting me (should have been drop ball), IDFK for a goalie handling a ball outside the area and probably missed multiple other issues in Law.

Equally I've been told that other refs have given sin bins for bad language aimed at other players which is wrong in Law.

Ours is a strange profession where those that don't perform well aren't held to account as there aren't others to replace them. Equally the training and support is limited and Last Week's ref probably has no interest in going anyway.

Imho all players should have to do some.sort of basic ref course so they understand why certain decisions are given. However I am fully aware that that is a pipe dream.

I do try to give the odd bit of knowledge as I do a game - the amount of players and managers who feel that 'getting the ball' gives free license to do a careless challenge is pretty much all of them - but equally I don't want to overcommunicate as that can corrode my authority.

Who'd be a ref ?! ;)
 

one

RefChat Addict
I couldn’t agree more One. Unfortunately at real grass roots level they often struggle to get a referee at all, never mind one with enough experience to do games in all divisions.
I found out this morning I have my first hearing in many years coming up and it’s because we don’t have enough experienced refs to clamp down on troublemakers.
I had a game two weeks ago between the top two teams in the league - one of the teams is no problem, but the other is a nightmare.
I penalised dangerous play by one of the team at which the captain came up “to talk“ He kept going even when told to stop because “I’m the captain, I’m allowed to talk to you!” and was sin binned after going too far. As he walked off he turned and yelled some really choice language at me and was sent off. He then threatened me, again using foul language.
The team were told if he didn’t go the game would be abandoned so eventually he went but not before again yelling at me and kicking the match ball away. He got changed and came back to carry on later on.
I sent another one off for the team before sin binning another player, and then another made similar comments while he walked off so he was sin binned as well. The team were down to 7 on the pitch (they tried to sneak a sub on at this point to give them 8 men but I spotted this!)
The team had another couple of cautions for fouls and actually walked off because I was being mean to them! The captain had come back and carried on threatening me, being joined in this by several others. I’ve reported the captain for misconduct as well as the red. The club have been reported for failure to control and causing abandonment. I didn’t see who was making the threatening comments so couldn’t send them as well but their comments were reported.
I abandoned the game when they walked off.
The club accepted the charges but the captain has appealed! Unfortunately he got away with one the end of last season when banned sine die for spitting at a colleague so thinks he might again.
The trouble is that the players get away with this usually so don’t know when to stop when I won’t tolerate it. We don’t have enough experienced refs to enforce law appropriately so the clubs actually told the league they wanted the refs to show more cards because players were getting hurt!
Unfortunately the professional game does us no favours because the players see their heroes getting away with it so think they should as well. In addition newer refs also think they should just ignore it so a few of us are left to pick up the pieces.
Very much so the point that players who usually get away with it, when they don't, they go nuts. You just have to deal with them as you did. You are not responsible for 'controlling' them. They are adults and know right from wrong.

I also see your point about lack of numbers in experienced referees. I agree that it an issues and causes some problems. But that is an unavoidable one. For example the wrong decisions that @afronaut81 made were because he didn't know the correct decision or lack of experience not because of selfish reasons (I must add my hat off to you for having the courage to admit to those mistakes). My problem is with the experienced referees who know they are doing the wrong thing but still do it because of selfish reasons. For example not send a player off because they can't be bothered with the admin work. These days (more often that should) referees choose an easy decision over the correct decision if they have to choose between the two. And they don't think about the impact it has on those referees who want to do the right thing. This post and the article in it is a good example of the rare occasion of a referee choosing the correct decision over an easy decision.
 
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