Time wasting at the highest levels.

[Mooseybaby]

Nothing new and has been discussed many times on this forum, but so much for the supposed clampdown of timewasting as haven't seen much evidence of it so far!

Was at the Southampton Vs Chelsea game last night. (Chelsea were awful and deserved to lose, could have played till midnight against no opposition and still lost), however the timewasting by Southampton was beyond a joke and made a mockery of the narrative that the Premier League were going to get tough on it.

5 minutes were added on at the end of the second half, but with numerous injury/faking stoppages, drinks breaks, substitutions and standard bit for time wasting, even 10 minutes still wouldn't have covered the stoppages!

At one point during the 2nd half, the Southampton keeper embraced his inner Pickford with a theatrical delayed dive on the ball, wait for everyone to clear the area before slowly standing and then wandering around his area. In all he held the ball for 31 seconds before eventually releasing without a hint of a hurry up from referee Michael Oliver!

Then there was the throw ins and goal kicks, all of which took an eternity, again without hint of encouragement to speed things up.

I am in no way blaming Michael Oliver, he is no doubt just acting under the instructions of his paymasters.

I saw the Leeds managers interview this morning, where he also raised the issue of timewasting, with Pickford and his trademark 1minute + to take a goal kick mentioned.

As I said in another recent thread, so much for the so called show, because the public are being seriously short changed in their value for money of the show due to the actions of the players and suits inactions and unwillingness to properly tackle the issue!

 

[Big Cat]

Nothing new and has been discussed many times on this forum, but so much for the supposed clampdown of timewasting as haven't seen much evidence of it so far!

Was at the Southampton Vs Chelsea game last night. (Chelsea were awful and deserved to lose, could have played till midnight against no opposition and still lost), however the timewasting by Southampton was beyond a joke and made a mockery of the narrative that the Premier League were going to get tough on it.

5 minutes were added on at the end of the second half, but with numerous injury/faking stoppages, drinks breaks, substitutions and standard bit for time wasting, even 10 minutes still wouldn't have covered the stoppages!

At one point during the 2nd half, the Southampton keeper embraced his inner Pickford with a theatrical delayed dive on the ball, wait for everyone to clear the area before slowly standing and then wandering around his area. In all he held the ball for 31 seconds before eventually releasing without a hint of a hurry up from referee Michael Oliver!

Then there was the throw ins and goal kicks, all of which took an eternity, again without hint of encouragement to speed things up.

I am in no way blaming Michael Oliver, he is no doubt just acting under the instructions of his paymasters.

I saw the Leeds managers interview this morning, where he also raised the issue of timewasting, with Pickford and his trademark 1minute + to take a goal kick mentioned.

As I said in another recent thread, so much for the so called show, because the public are being seriously short changed in their value for money of the show due to the actions of the players and suits inactions and unwillingness to properly tackle the issue!

It's OK though. Someone had the amazing idea of introducing more spare balls. Anything rather than give the Refs license to Officiate the game with some degree of authority
TBF, there's been a few more cautions, but players rarely care much about that safe in the knowledge it makes them untouchable for the same offence a second time

 

[RustyRef]

I actually agree with Lampard about the Leeds manager Marsch last night. He was being completely unrealistic, the very second the ball went out of play he was holding his arm in the air touching the watch, that isn't how football works and is an unrealistic expectation.

Some restarts take a long time, but this is nothing new and has been like this ever since I've watched football. It used to be a lot worse before the backpass law change came in, watching football in the 80s was often as dull as dishwater as the likes of Liverpool passed it around the back line then back to the keeper who picked it up. Then repeat again, and again, and again.

Last season bucked the trend a little, but the ball is in play on average in games now than it has been since Opta stats started in 2007, so pretty clear it isn't a recent issue. And if Opta stats went back further than that I suspect they would show lower numbers in pre-Premier League days.

 

[Mooseybaby]

I can well remember life before the backpass law, Arsenal were one of the worst at making games sterile with Lee Dixon regularly turning round and hitting backpasses from the halfway line to his keeper (George Graham used to laugh about the boring boring Arsenal tag). As annoying and dull as it was, it was still allowed within the laws on the game. Teams have just found other ways of running the clock down, many of which do violate the laws of the game and are well within the the referee's remit to deal with, but sadly we all know they don't and can't see changing anytime soon! If only the law makers did more to ensure the laws are enforced evenly across all the leagues without "local overrides" instead of constant unnecessary tweaks and changes!

 

[Kref]

Wow I cant believe that at the highest level of play the play is only is play for less than 2/3 of game time this is atroious.

 

[Anubis]

Wow I cant believe that at the highest level of play the play is only is play for less than 2/3 of game time this is atroious.

Suppose can work two ways, as a neutral, or a fan of the team who wants as much action as possible, probably want the bali in play more

As purely a fan though, do they care as long as its three points/win the cuptie?

 

[socal lurker]

I can well remember life before the backpass law, Arsenal were one of the worst at making games sterile with Lee Dixon regularly turning round and hitting backpasses from the halfway line to his keeper (George Graham used to laugh about the boring boring Arsenal tag). As annoying and dull as it was, it was still allowed within the laws on the game. Teams have just found other ways of running the clock down, many of which do violate the laws of the game and are well within the the referee's remit to deal with, but sadly we all know they don't and can't see changing anytime soon! If only the law makers did more to ensure the laws are enforced evenly across all the leagues without "local overrides" instead of constant unnecessary tweaks and changes!

And what authority does IFAB have to do that?

 

[RustyRef]

Wow I cant believe that at the highest level of play the play is only is play for less than 2/3 of game time this is atroious.

It has always been like that since football existed though, it isn't anything new. It takes time to get the ball back when it has gone out, take throw-ins, set up for corners and set pieces, all things that the referee shouldn't add time for.

It's no surprise that it is in play more now than it was 15 years ago as football is now much more technical, there are a lot less long balls, and the ball goes out of play a lot less.

Also look at the games where the ball has been in play the least, games like these completely skew the average, and almost all are where you have managers like Pulis who set out to kill the game from minute 1.

 

[Max2]

All these teams have to do is… be winning a match. Then they can do it too!

 

[Paul_10]

Saw 2 games last night where there was not one booking for time wasting even though they should of been. Thought Everton were bad but Newcastle took the biscuit with it but if the referees are not getting the yellows out for time wasting/kicking the ball away then of course you going to keep on doing it.

Of course the huge gap between big 6 teams and the rest does not help, of course the small teams will use time wasting tactics to disrupt the flow I do get it at times but if referees do not clamp down on it with cards then what's the point. Saw Darren England just pointing to his watch but despite Pickford constantly time wasting he didn't get booked once.

And then even worse tonight seeing Joelinton kicking the ball away twice in a clear timewasting tactic and Marriner did not bother booking him!

 

[Big Cat]

Saw 2 games last night where there was not one booking for time wasting even though they should of been. Thought Everton were bad but Newcastle took the biscuit with it but if the referees are not getting the yellows out for time wasting/kicking the ball away then of course you going to keep on doing it.

Of course the huge gap between big 6 teams and the rest does not help, of course the small teams will use time wasting tactics to disrupt the flow I do get it at times but if referees do not clamp down on it with cards then what's the point. Saw Darren England just pointing to his watch but despite Pickford constantly time wasting he didn't get booked once.

And then even worse tonight seeing Joelinton kicking the ball away twice in a clear timewasting tactic and Marriner did not bother booking him!

Joalinton ought to have been cautioned as you said. Other that that, I thought the away team were genuinely struggling with fatigue/cramp etc. 3 days since last game and 67 hours until next one. That would give the elite teams summit to moan about

Timed games is the only answer. Refereeing largely being at fault, but time wasting is too established in the game to reverse any other way, especially with dismissals being off the table

60 mins would be too short a duration however. Without the time wasting, games wouldn't last 90 mins. So that's a problem with that idea

 

[Paul_10]

Joalinton ought to have been cautioned as you said. Other that that, I thought the away team were genuinely struggling with fatigue/cramp etc. 3 days since last game and 67 hours until next one. That would give the elite teams summit to moan about

Timed games is the only answer. Refereeing largely being at fault, but time wasting is too established in the game to reverse any other way, especially with dismissals being off the table

60 mins would be too short a duration however. Without the time wasting, games wouldn't last 90 mins. So that's a problem with that idea

If the away team were struggling with cramp so constantly despite only being 5 games into the new season then the coaching maybe needs to be looked at as they are clearly not fit enough - I suspect alot of the "cramps" was more over exaggerated to slow the game down which I understand to an extent but it would be nice too see referees clamp down on it with yellow cards if it's blatant.

At least in fairness Marriner correctly added the time on and Newcastle got punished, the fact their manager has not moaned about it tells us they know their tactics backfired.

 

[Brian Hamilton]

I actually agree with Lampard about the Leeds manager Marsch last night. He was being completely unrealistic, the very second the ball went out of play he was holding his arm in the air touching the watch, that isn't how football works and is an unrealistic expectation.

Some restarts take a long time, but this is nothing new and has been like this ever since I've watched football. It used to be a lot worse before the backpass law change came in, watching football in the 80s was often as dull as dishwater as the likes of Liverpool passed it around the back line then back to the keeper who picked it up. Then repeat again, and again, and again.

Last season bucked the trend a little, but the ball is in play on average in games now than it has been since Opta stats started in 2007, so pretty clear it isn't a recent issue. And if Opta stats went back further than that I suspect they would show lower numbers in pre-Premier League days.

I'll begin by saying I am a Leeds fan, I was at the game and I've met Darren England. Been attending Leeds games since January '76 and I had Darren sit alongside me when I was observing one of his mentees once or twice before Covid.

I don't agree with Lampard and never will. I know that Marsch employs theatrics to stimulate the crowd (by demonstrably showing them he cares about things as much as they do supposedly) and to challenge the referee (provoked Michael Salisbury in the game at Brighton into cautioning him and when he was 4th official against Chelsea). I think Darren played into his hands by putting his finger to the watch and holding it aloft. He could have quietly spoken to the Leeds captain and informed him that the time was being added back on, when he thought restarts were being delayed. It gave Marsch something to mimic and the crowd to latch on to.

At one point near the end of the game, some of the people around me started to count from when the first Everton player touched the ball when it went out of play until the game was restarted by a goal kick. I shook my head in disbelief. Most of them were in the FIFA/OPTA worshipping age groups. I know stats have a place in the game the xG doesn't matter when you've lost 3-2 away on a rainy Tuesday night in Stoke.

I also spent a few minutes explaining to those around me why Adams had been cautioned (he stuck a foot out and diverted the ball when an Everton free kick was taken - he was less than 2m from the kicker). Fans don't see things like that.

I think part of the problem is that Leeds fans and players want to play at 100mph and expect everyone else to do the same. They want snappy restarts so that opponents have less time to consider their set up at set pieces and also to maintain the momentum. Everton (and Wolves before them), both saw the opportunity to frustrate this coached approach from Leeds and also to provoke a negative reaction from the crowd. Both led to challenges from Leeds seeing players cautioned for reckless play.

It is incredibly frustrating to watch and even worse to know that what these teams are doing is using the high tempo and energy built by Leeds against them. I'll keep biting my tongue.

 

[QuaverRef]

Liverpools late goal is more of a punishment for Newcastles time wasting than any booking. Obviously doesn’t justify the referee not issuing cautions for it but it does feel good

 

[Big Cat]

Liverpools late goal is more of a punishment for Newcastles time wasting than any booking. Obviously doesn’t justify the referee not issuing cautions for it but it does feel good

Genuinely, I don't think Liverpool deserved the 3 points. Away team having a mare with injuries and they lost impetus in attack when Isak was forced off. Home team had lots of ball hut didn't create much clear cut
Besides, I mean what do spectators expect? It's the gulf between the teams that's at fault. Two 9 nils and a 6 nil in a week. If the underdogs don't waste time they get humped. NUFC have bridged the gap courtesy of the awful state of the game, but they ended the game with too many casualties

One unwritten rule, is whilst only a fraction of time wasted during normal time gets added on, every second lost during added time is accounted for. Mariner was justified to play 8 mins but to say the away team was rightly punished for a head injury is a bit unfair

I maintain time wasting is a function of weak refereeing. The inmates in any setting will always test the wardens for weakness, especially when a culture of cheating has always been encouraged. The gulf between the teams in modern football exacerbates things. All teams and players are the same. All Match Officials are also the same. Weak because of their instructions

 

[Big Cat]

Turns out, ball was in play for almost an hour last night. 9th most ball in play out of 49 EPL games this season. So time wasting claims are mythical
Gotta say, whilst I've enjoyed seeing some good players wearing black n white, it will never mean anywhere near as much to me as it did decades ago. I'm resilient to being Sports Washed, Woke Washed or any other kind of Washed. I know where the dosh originates
But I have thoroughly enjoyed watching Cartel Member Clubs call foul on this new imposter at every opportunity and their failed attempts to stop it. Priceless ironic absurdity

But yeh, I didn't sense time wasting on any level more noticeable than ever last night. And the OPTA stats have confirmed it's just Hog Washing

And I'm balanced enough to support the 8 mins added even though the keeper was only on the ground for 90s. Mariner is a class act

 

[RustyRef]

Turns out, ball was in play for almost an hour last night. 9th most ball in play out of 49 EPL games this season. So time wasting claims are mythical
Gotta say, whilst I've enjoyed seeing some good players wearing black n white, it will never mean anywhere near as much to me as it did decades ago. I'm resilient to being Sports Washed, Woke Washed or any other kind of Washed. I know where the dosh originates
But I have thoroughly enjoyed watching Cartel Member Clubs call foul on this new imposter at every opportunity and their failed attempts to stop it. Priceless ironic absurdity

But yeh, I didn't sense time wasting on any level more noticeable than ever last night. And the OPTA stats have confirmed it's just Hog Washing

And I'm balanced enough to support the 8 mins added even though the keeper was only on the ground for 90s. Mariner is a class act

I'm completely neutral, and there was absolutely attempted and successful time wasting by Newcastle. You are always going to get higher time in play when you have two footballing teams as the ball doesn't go out as much as when it does with teams that go longer.

Not that I blame any team holding onto points at Liverpool to try and use every trick in the book to help them. The reason I get annoyed with managers moaning about it is almost every single one of them would do exactly the same if they were holding on, which makes them hypocrites. They come out and blame the referee even though they've done exactly the same in previous games.

 

[Big Cat]

I'm completely neutral, and there was absolutely attempted and successful time wasting by Newcastle. You are always going to get higher time in play when you have two footballing teams as the ball doesn't go out as much as when it does with teams that go longer.

Not that I blame any team holding onto points at Liverpool to try and use every trick in the book to help them. The reason I get annoyed with managers moaning about it is almost every single one of them would do exactly the same if they were holding on, which makes them hypocrites. They come out and blame the referee even though they've done exactly the same in previous games.

Yes, there was nothing out of the ordinary about this game in respect to time wasting. Just the hype was inflated cos they sense a threat, especially as City look likely to turn the Oligopoly into a Monopoly

 

[APurpleChair]

There is an unwritten rule which means that a team is always allowed to take a corner, or complete an attack - even if time is up. Liverpool benefited massively from that.

It's been mentioned before, but time wasting could be completely eliminated by stopping the watch when the ball is out of play and timing the games to 55 or 60 minutes.
Would obviously have to be controlled by a 3rd party, and could only be done at higher levels, but I don't see any disadvantages?

 

[JamesL]

There is an unwritten rule which means that a team is always allowed to take a corner, or complete an attack - even if time is up. Liverpool benefited massively from that.

It's been mentioned before, but time wasting could be completely eliminated by stopping the watch when the ball is out of play and timing the games to 55 or 60 minutes.
Would obviously have to be controlled by a 3rd party, and could only be done at higher levels, but I don't see any disadvantages?

There are a few I can think of
With a stop clock there is no telling how long a game would last. Broadcasting nightmare and that's where a lot of the money comes from.
It also presents travel issues - a game goes on much longer than 90 minutes due to the stopped clock then fans would potentially be stranded. The risk would lead to lower attendances and a lower quality of product = Less money.
Teams would take advantage and use stopped clock to punctuate the game further.
I feel a stop clock could potentially lead to a muc slower game and even American football based 'plays'. (Don't know a lot about it).
Of course there are things that can be done to combat but I wouldn't say there are no disadvantages that's for sure.