Junior/Youth The circus is in town

[Ciley Myrus]

I don't get this post but your authority is limited to making him leave the FOP, tech area and it's vicinity. You have no authority in telling him where he should go outside outside of that.

On this occasion the pitch is ring fenced, cage like, with changing room say, two min walk away.
Given he came from the wrong side of town, he was never making back to the changing room past the gathered throng.

 

[Justylove]

I don't get this post but your authority is limited to making him leave the FOP, tech area and it's vicinity. You have no authority in telling him where he should go outside outside of that.

Sometimes you have to use some common sense.

I had a game that had 2 players throw punches at each other. Both dismissed for VC. I binned the away player first as he was the most aggressive and before he left the FOP, he turned to the home player and said "When you get into the changing room, I'm going to f***ing kill you, you little c**t"

Bearing in mind the home player was in his kit, his car keys were in the changing room, I decided to have him stand 15 yards away on the other side of the pitch for the remaining 15 minutes of the game, with the clear warning that if I heard a single peep from him, he could take his chances in the changing rooms.

As it was, 5 minutes later, the aggressive away player came sprinting out of the changing room, straight across the FOP in an attempt to get to the home player, stood causing no trouble by himself.

Technically, I was incorrect to do this, but its a decision that I would take again, given the circumstances.

 

[one]

Sometimes you have to use some common sense.

I had a game that had 2 players throw punches at each other. Both dismissed for VC. I binned the away player first as he was the most aggressive and before he left the FOP, he turned to the home player and said "When you get into the changing room, I'm going to f***ing kill you, you little c**t"

Bearing in mind the home player was in his kit, his car keys were in the changing room, I decided to have him stand 15 yards away on the other side of the pitch for the remaining 15 minutes of the game, with the clear warning that if I heard a single peep from him, he could take his chances in the changing rooms.

As it was, 5 minutes later, the aggressive away player came sprinting out of the changing room, straight across the FOP in an attempt to get to the home player, stood causing no trouble by himself.

Technically, I was incorrect to do this, but its a decision that I would take again, given the circumstances.

Some good common sense by you. The point was there is nothing you could have done if they wanted to go wherever they wanted to go whenever they wanted to go. Had he decided not to listen to you and stay around 15 yards away on the other side its not a misconduct or anything contrary to any laws/rules.

 

[Justylove]

Some good common sense by you. The point was there is nothing you could have done if they wanted to go wherever they wanted to go whenever they wanted to go. Had he decided not to listen to you and stay around 15 yards away on the other side its not a misconduct or anything contrary to any laws/rules.

15 yards away from the pitch is not away from the immediate vicinity of the pitch.

 

[one]

15 yards away from the pitch is not away from the immediate vicinity of the pitch.

That is the point. That's where you told him to stay and lucky for you (and possibly for him and the rest) that's what he did. But if he wanted to go to the derssing room, could you have done anything about it? Would he have committed any misconduct by not taking your direction of not staying around after you had sent him off?
What would your misconduct report say? I sent him off and told him to stay in the immidiate vicinity but he left the immidiate vicinity?

I get the common sense and agree with it. But once you sent him off he is not acting contrary to any law/rules if he decides to leave the vicinity even if you ask him to stay in the vicinity.

 

[Justylove]

That is the point. That's where you told him to stay and lucky for you (and possibly for him and the rest) that's what he did. But if he wanted to go to the derssing room, could you have done anything about it? Would he have committed any misconduct by not taking your direction of not staying around after you had sent him off?
What would your misconduct report say? I sent him off and told him to stay in the immidiate vicinity but he left the immidiate vicinity?

I get the common sense and agree with it. But once you sent him off he is not acting contrary to any law/rules if he decides to leave the vicinity even if you ask him to stay in the vicinity.

Sure - But its about demonstrating a reasonable level of care.

If I'd turned round and said "sorry, you're off to the changing rooms" and he'd been assaulted in there, then regardless of any of the potential legal impacts (negligence etc), I wouldn't be able to look myself in the eye in the mirror.

Had he decided that the other player would be fine and decided to go into the changing rooms, then that's his decision, no additional sanction from me is possible, however I've done what I can.
Regardless of the outcome, you need to be seen to be giving a reasonable set of options.

 

[Padfoot]

If the player is a minor, under the age of 18, you have a welfare responsibility to them, especially if it becomes apparent that no one from their team is taking responsibility.
You simply cannot order them to walk away from the pitch area on their own. The easiest way to deal with youth dismissals is to tell the coaches that the player can remain within the technical area providing they cause no issues whatsoever. 9 times out of 10 that solves any potential welfare issues without causing you any problems.

If the child continues to cause problems, then you have a few other options.....send them back to the changing rooms with one of the coaches to supervise, get the coaches to get the players parents to escort them away if they are present or abandon the game.
What you cannot do is to allow an unaccompanied child to go wandering off to god knows where.....the potential risks are too great.

If you think that it isn’t your ‘job’ to worry about what happens to the child after you’ve dismissed them......imagine it was your child forced to wander alone around a possibly unfamiliar venue?

 

[Tino Best]

Well said Padfoot. Common sense and decency wins the day.

 

[RustyRef]

If the player is a minor, under the age of 18, you have a welfare responsibility to them, especially if it becomes apparent that no one from their team is taking responsibility.
You simply cannot order them to walk away from the pitch area on their own. The easiest way to deal with youth dismissals is to tell the coaches that the player can remain within the technical area providing they cause no issues whatsoever. 9 times out of 10 that solves any potential welfare issues without causing you any problems.

If the child continues to cause problems, then you have a few other options.....send them back to the changing rooms with one of the coaches to supervise, get the coaches to get the players parents to escort them away if they are present or abandon the game.
What you cannot do is to allow an unaccompanied child to go wandering off to god knows where.....the potential risks are too great.

If you think that it isn’t your ‘job’ to worry about what happens to the child after you’ve dismissed them......imagine it was your child forced to wander alone around a possibly unfamiliar venue?

Indeed, I was reading this topic with some alarm given the amount of child protection training I've gone through recently. A sent off child is still a child, and therefore needs protecting. Clubs should have two child protection trained and CRC checked staff at all games, one adult should never be left on their own with the kids. But if you send the kid away one of those two staff will have to go with him, so you are creating a child protection best practices breach. Even worse if the trained staff stay with the team and a non-trained, non CRC cleared person wanders off with a child on his or her own.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Indeed, I was reading this topic with some alarm given the amount of child protection training I've gone through recently. A sent off child is still a child, and therefore needs protecting. Clubs should have two child protection trained and CRC checked staff at all games, one adult should never be left on their own with the kids. But if you send the kid away one of those two staff will have to go with him, so you are creating a child protection best practices breach. Even worse if the trained staff stay with the team and a non-trained, non CRC cleared person wanders off with a child on his or her own.

Unless the 'non CRC cleared person' is his parent, legal guardian or bona fide relative of course. Not sure how in the middle of the game we are supposed to check if said person looking after the child is a relative, CRC or not CRC checked?

 

[RustyRef]

Unless the 'non CRC cleared person' is his parent, legal guardian or bona fide relative of course. Not sure how in the middle of the game we are supposed to check if said person looking after the child is a relative, CRC or not CRC checked?

Which is my point, don't enforce sending them away. I may get pilloried for suggesting not enforcing regulations, but rather that than risking child protection.

 

[AlexF]

But if you send the kid away one of those two staff will have to go with him, so you are creating a child protection best practices breach. Even worse if the trained staff stay with the team and a non-trained, non CRC cleared person wanders off with a child on his or her own.

Which means that the league has to adapt their rules to suit.

We have at least one league (that I can think of offhand) that has rules in place whereby a youth player (prior to their 18th birthday) does not leave the vicinity of the field, but sits in a chair behind the team bench. There are also further rules/sanctions in place if the player acts up again while seated there.

 

[one]

Which means that the league has to adapt their rules to suit.

We have at least one league (that I can think of offhand) that has rules in place whereby a youth player (prior to their 18th birthday) does not leave the vicinity of the field, but sits in a chair behind the team bench. There are also further rules/sanctions in place if the player acts up again while seated there.

This.

You can not have a league who's rules creates a conflict for the referee.
They can not ask the referee to follow the send off laws/rules but then not enforce/ have other rules in place for teams so that send off laws/rules do not create safety issues.

Having said that, this is almost never an issue where I am. Every kid goes to a game with a parent or a career (some times parents share). If a kid is sent off, they are taken away by the parent.

 

[Ben448844]

Sure - But its about demonstrating a reasonable level of care.

If I'd turned round and said "sorry, you're off to the changing rooms" and he'd been assaulted in there, then regardless of any of the potential legal impacts (negligence etc), I wouldn't be able to look myself in the eye in the mirror.

Had he decided that the other player would be fine and decided to go into the changing rooms, then that's his decision, no additional sanction from me is possible, however I've done what I can.
Regardless of the outcome, you need to be seen to be giving a reasonable set of options.

Assuming it's OA football, you could not be sued for negligence for sending them both to the changing rooms!

Now that's over with, what you did seemed like a very sensible thing to do and I'm certain that is do the same.

 

[one]

As a referee you don't have authority to demand a player go to (sending them to) a specific place, changing room, car park etc. after you send them off. All you can demand is to leave FOP, TA and vicinity. Where they go is up to them.

Your duty of care is limited to the FOP, TA and vicinity. For a junior game, IMO it is reasonable to assume leagues/clubs/teams would know there is a chance a player can get sent off and has to leave the vicinity (unless league rules says otherwise). Hence they have complied with "their" duty of care with having enough resources to take care of the sent off child.

Now if you are made aware that they don't have enough resources to take care of a sent off child then you have two options. Abandon game or compromise (eg player stands behind the TA). Common sense dictates you go with the compromise if it is possible to manage the rest of the game that way.

Similar to cases when you don't have authority to do something to stop a potential player (child or adult) welfare issue somewhere outside your juristiction. Common sense dictates you use you powers of persuasion to mitigate it. For example what was done after sending two opponent after a fight in a scenario above.

 

[one]

Just out of interest, what are your thoughts on this.

Referee (could be junior or adult) sends a 14 year old off and says he has to leave. Manager says I don't have anyone to take care of him. Referee says that is not my problem. Players goes to the carpark by himself and manager and referee continue with the game. A serious incident happens to the child in the car park. Who should be held accountable/responsible for this issue? Manager or the referee (or anyone else)?

 

[Ciley Myrus]

What do folk think would happen if say a kids game, you have a sending off but the kid stays at side of park and then later on he is involved in say, act of violence?
If a committee then asked later why you as ref allowed him to remain there, and you say because there were not adults to escort him to changing room, do you think the committee would, appluad your common sense, or, remind you that you should have had the player removed from vicinity and abandoned if required?

 

[Ciley Myrus]

Just out of interest, what are your thoughts on this.

Referee (could be junior or adult) sends a 14 year old off and says he has to leave. Manager says I don't have anyone to take care of him. Referee says that is not my problem. Players goes to the carpark by himself and manager and referee continue with the game. A serious incident happens to the child in the car park. Who should be held accountable/responsible for this issue? Manager or the referee (or anyone else)?

The kid, because had he obided by the lotg he would still be on the park!!

 

[one]

What do folk think would happen if say a kids game, you have a sending off but the kid stays at side of park and then later on he is involved in say, act of violence?
If a committee then asked later why you as ref allowed him to remain there, and you say because there were not adults to escort him to changing room, do you think the committee would, appluad your common sense, or, remind you that you should have had the player removed from vicinity and abandoned if required?

Neither. I (as committee member) would think he did the best he could with the circumstances put in from of him without the benefit of hindsight.

 

[Ciley Myrus]

Neither. I (as committee member) would think he did the best he could with the circumstances put in from of him without the benefit of hindsight.

I dont disagree, my point being though if its the required directive that the player leaves the vicinity and you have not followed that through, the requirement is pointless full stop.
Where I am, there is of course nothing written down, its generally accepted a player sent off leaves the vicinity at grass roots but its 50/50 as to whether it happens. I have long since stopped demanding it, what I tend to find is if its later on in the game, players seem to head to the changing rooms regardless.
Semi pro here, players do need to go to the dressing room but can return to the vicinity once changed.