Sin Bins - 17/18 Season

[Trip]

The average uneducated coach/parent on the sidelines will be screaming blue murder as to why you have done a Graham Poll and yellow carded a player 3 times and yet he/she hasn't been red carded and is now being substituted!

Yes, but coaches, parents, players, and indeed professional football pundits being ignorant of the laws is hardly a new phenomenon. Unlike the offside law this one is quite easy to understand, it's just new. It would be a poor ref that didn't explain the new procedure to managers before the match the first few weeks.

 

[DanRicketts]

Anyone know if this is still covered by the laws/rules of rugby - it seems like quite a while since I saw it implemented.

Football could learn a lot from Rugby about how to deal with frustration.

I've only used the 10m penalty advance once. Player 2 metres out from the line infringes and i blow for a penalty. I then hear"ah f**k'in 'ell sir" from the offending player. Quick peep on the whistle and a brisk jog forwards with echos of "shut up Dave you idiot" and then "sorry sir, he'll get your beer after" from his captain . I acknowledge the apology and thank him. I should point out that the score was about 85-0 to the offending player's team at this point.

After the game, i get the promised beer and a further apology and explanation that he'd just come back from injury and was the closest to a try he'd been in 4 years. I almost felt sorry for him!

I've binned 2 players in my few games so far. Both accepted it and didn't complain. Both sides then said "sorry about him, he does it a lot".

If i renew my licence for next season which is cheaper than paying to do a course in a few years and i ref games on a sin bin league, you can be sure that i will be using it a lot. My tolerance level is low.

Here's my tips:
- tell the coach "use your phone/watch to keep track of time, I'm not going to give out time updates as you'll want me to watch the game. I'm only expecting to hear from you about players coming on and off. If someone's in the bin, set your timer and call me if you think I've gone over."

If they can't do that then they can just watch. My daftest moment was the coach saying "tell me when there's 10 minutes to go ref" halfway through the half. I replied "set your watch going, it's in 6 minutes" which raised a chuckle from the other coaches.

Until the players and coaches get on with the game and have realistic expectations of referees it will always be a crapshoot. My money from adult rugby is 45p a mile. No match fee and i can be called to go anywhere in north London and South Essex. However the relationship between referees and players makes it a pleasure not a chore.

 

[happy whistler]

what happens if player shows dissent with a minute to go or at the end of the game ? What is the punishment then ?

 

[Darius]

I've refrained from commenting on this till I could articulate properly what I think. Using it at Pro level is brilliant. Grassroots being the only place it starts at is wrong for the following reason.

Answer the following questions.

Do you get dissent from the team who's winning or losing?
Is it always the referees fault they're losing?
Does the idea of losing a tenner keep SOME players in check here?
If you're 5-0 down in a cup game do you care about being down to 10 men for 10 minutes?

 

[Sheffields Finest]

1) What happens if the dissent continues from the sin binned player sat on the naughty step! Lets just say you now give him a yellow card for his extra chirp sat down, will he now be expecting to come back on as the naughty step element has been expunged???? or is that now a new 'double' punishment??? Does the initial 10 minutes have to be completed??

2) What happens if he has already been yellow carded for something else before the dissent starts ?? Any differences??

 

[Peter Grove]

1) What happens if the dissent continues from the sin binned player sat on the naughty step! Lets just say you now give him a yellow card for his extra chirp sat down, will he now be expecting to come back on as the naughty step element has been expunged???? or is that now a new 'double' punishment??? Does the initial 10 minutes have to be completed??

2) What happens if he has already been yellow carded for something else before the dissent starts ?? Any differences??

Since the FA is using 'System B' then as I read it, the following provisions of the IFAB guidelines should apply:

• A player who has been temporarily dismissed and then receives a caution (YC) continues playing
•A player who has received a caution (YC) and then receives a temporary dismissal can continue playing after the end of the temporary dismissal period
•A player who receives a second temporary dismissal in the same match will serve the temporary dismissal and then takes no further part in the match. The player may be replaced by a substitute at the end of the second temporary dismissal period if the player’s team has not used its maximum number of substitutes
•A player who receives a second caution (YC) in the same match will be sent off and takes no further part in the match and may not be replaced/substituted

 

[RustyRef]

I would wait and see what the FA are actually proposing before jumping to any assumptions as to how it will work. I've seen the email from Mark Ives and it isn't clear, and says that leagues who opt into the pilot will receive further information and training. I know that there is the proposals of options A and B, but the FA may have got permission for something in between for all we know.

 

[Padfoot]

I would wait and see what the FA are actually proposing before jumping to any assumptions as to how it will work. I've seen the email from Mark Ives and it isn't clear, and says that leagues who opt into the pilot will receive further information and training. I know that there is the proposals of options A and B, but the FA may have got permission for something in between for all we know.

In other words, wait and see how much more of a complete mess the FA can make it.

 

[Peter Grove]

I would wait and see what the FA are actually proposing before jumping to any assumptions as to how it will work. I've seen the email from Mark Ives and it isn't clear, and says that leagues who opt into the pilot will receive further information and training. I know that there is the proposals of options A and B, but the FA may have got permission for something in between for all we know.

I don't think that's how it works. To the best of my knowledge, once the IFAB has authorised experimental Laws changes and published the official parameters as to how those experiments are to be conducted, national associations must follow the officially published procedures. Although they didn't reiterate it in this particular instance, the IFAB has made it clear in the past that:

National FAs and competitions are only permitted to take part in experiments [...] with the permission of The IFAB. Permission will only be granted where The IFAB protocols will be used ...

Everything I've seen so far indicates that the FA is using System B with the already-authorised variation of using temporary dismissals only for dissent.

The 'further information' they refer to will probably be mostly to do with the reporting and disciplinary procedures that are mentioned in the IFAB guidelines as being up to the competition authorities, as follows:

Competitions/national FAs will decide if temporary dismissals must be reported to the appropriate authorities and whether any further disciplinary action may be taken e.g. suspension for accumulating a number of temporary dismissals, as with cautions (YCs)

 

[Kent Ref]

For me two yellows for dissent should equal a red and NO replacement. How does this make any sense (replacing a sent off player after the twenty minutes is up)? The team should play the rest of the game with 10 players.

Does a player sent off for 2 yellows get a fine and suspension or not?

This whole thing has not been thought out.

As an aside who exactly at the FA is there to speak up for referees? Who are these people? Are the elected or is it friends of friends etc? Who would have agreed to this total fiasco?

 

[zarathustra]

I can see 2 sin bins and you're gone working on leagues where rolling subs aren't used, as if they've used their 3 subs then the team will be down a player.

But where rolling subs are used it won't make a difference, they might be a man down for 10 minutes but then they'll just bring someone else on.

So far none of the leagues I've registered with have mentioned this being introduced.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Well you seem to have understood it perfectly. How hard can it be?

 

[PinnerPaul]

It's neither too simple nor too hard, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. Maybe it can be improved.

I think this idea might reduce dissent. It's true it might not, and also true it might cause other problems, but I think it's worth trying.

One thing it definitely isn't is too complicated. The offside law is much more difficult to understand and yet we all seem to have grasped that.

Hello again Trip,

"We" as in referees most certainly do understand it, but most others don't - THAT's the problem. Classic example yesterday, Southampton manager saying Liverpool GK would have been sent off if handball had been given - would loved to have asked him which of the 7 possible offences for dismissal that one was!

 

[PinnerPaul]

Yes, but coaches, parents, players, and indeed professional football pundits being ignorant of the laws is hardly a new phenomenon. Unlike the offside law this one is quite easy to understand, it's just new. It would be a poor ref that didn't explain the new procedure to managers before the match the first few weeks.

Would have to get everyone there half an hour earlier than normal I think!

 

[Darius]

I was asked officially my opinion on this by one of my leagues.

I got thanked for my 'detailed reply'. They then told me that it won't be happening in the league!

 

[jofusref]

result well done darius

 

[Trip]

"We" as in referees most certainly do understand it, but most others don't - THAT's the problem.

My point is this: players, managers and so on failing to understand the laws is nothing new. The argument that sin bins will not be understood by players, managers, and so on and therefore shouldn't be introduced is not a good argument. If the mere fact that a lot of people don't understand a law was a good reason not to have it we wouldn't have many laws left.

The example you quote is a very good illustration of why widespread misunderstanding of a law is not a good reason to ditch the law.

 

[Darius]

For anyone who cares, and seeing though a few of you have liked it, here's my official feedback on it;

From a boots on the ground standpoint as a referee I personally am not a fan of it for the following reasons (these aren't in order of my level of objections but my view on it).

1. I don't believe that the £10 fee should be waivered for this, I believe this is one of the main reasons some lads know not to cross the line!

2. If you're 5-0 down do you really care about whether you go down to 10 men? It opens the door up there.

3. If I read the full information on it correctly I believe that should a player get 2 temporary dismissals then they can be replaced by a substitute after 10 minutes. That is ridiculous.

4. Referees will either heighten their tolerance level to avoid doing this, or alternatively will go the other way and it'll be like 'cardmageddon'!

5. 10 minutes will be disrupted and delayed by players walking for the ball, going down for injuries etc. If it's done correctly then you will add on this time. The manager on the sideline won't add this time on. This will create another situation for the referee.

I have many more reasons to not liking it from a personal point of view, but it is up to you guys how/if you do it and I will support in any way I can to make it work.

You would however need to make it an absolute necessity for all the referees in the league to meet up to go through how to implement this. Would all referees come to the meeting? How do you go about doing it with the ones who join mid season?

Hope this helps?

Darius

 

[Nathan Fuller]

I myself would be in favour of the sin bin of the FA had just left the second yellow=a red procedure alone as it is. All is explained in the picture.

 

[Trip]

I've been doing sin bins this season and it's brilliant. Because it affects the team when Mr mouthy starts gobbing off his mates tell him to shut up. I've had far less dissent this season - the number of incidents of dissent is probably similar but they shut up *way* before they used to.

"Do you need a 10 minute breather then?"