The Ref Stop

Sin Bin - Guinea pigs

DB said:
Trust me, going a man down for ten minutes will do much more damage than giving moving a ball forward ten yards. Have you ever played the game?
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Condersending remark DB! Yep, of course I have played the game! You could get away with a few of the dark arts back in my day!! Not now!!!

Logistical nightmare IMO for a single ref, i'd guess that a very large percentage of refs are on their own in the lower leagues. Potentially it could also cost jobs at the CFAs as it gives you a soft option of putting a player on the naughty step instead of showing a yellow card!
My shout works brilliant in Rugby as the decisions cost an easier FK or even a penalty... Better players will police the culprit players!!!Instant Karma!!!
 
The Ref Stop
James Long said:
I recall this being trialled before. Why was it stopped?
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Apparently foreign refs couldnt get their head around it...
Personally I am all for trying the sin bin. If it does t work it doesnt work. However if it does work it will be fine.
Rugby uses it at all levels - are we saying we are less competent than rugby officials?
If applied correctly and properly the idea has merit. I actually think it will fail not because its a bad idea but having read some of the various comments around this forum because people.want it to.
 
It failed because FIFA couldn't get their head around upgrading an offence that was an IDFK which goes into the box is upgraded to a DFK penalty... Once the players know they have a chance of giving away a soft penalty for too much lip it will have instant positives!!! Its a win win!!! None of this mess thats coming!!!
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Logistical nightmare IMO for a single ref
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What do you think will be so difficult? Simply write in your book when they're due to return and that's all you're really needing to manage it.

Is the sin bin in conjunction with a YC?

Australia Rules Football uses a 50m penalty for dissent!!! That's a 150m pitch too.

However, the problem with dissent isn't the laws - is that they're not enforced. Enforce the existing laws with zero tolerance - as pretty much every other sport under the sun does - and we'll be fine.
 
I think their will be some initial challenges but it has the potential to work. Glad to see the FA has only chosen disent as would be a nightmare for all offenses that IFAB initally suggested.. But as said before it works in Rugby and the refs get a lot more respect than we do as football referees.

I think it will succeed..
 
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Sheffields Finest said:
Condersending remark DB! Yep, of course I have played the game! You could get away with a few of the dark arts back in my day!! Not now!!!

Logistical nightmare IMO for a single ref, i'd guess that a very large percentage of refs are on their own in the lower leagues. Potentially it could also cost jobs at the CFAs as it gives you a soft option of putting a player on the naughty step instead of showing a yellow card!
My shout works brilliant in Rugby as the decisions cost an easier FK or even a penalty... Better players will police the culprit players!!!Instant Karma!!!
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Not condescending at all as I was waiting for your response before I finished what I wanted to say...

A ten pound fine to the majority means Bugger all. It is nothing. There is no lesson learnt, there is no deterrent and it becomes a badge of honour for some.

Now, flip the coin and put in your players hat. You've just acted like a prat, it's 3-3 and you've got 15 minutes left. Your dismissed and your team are at a numerical disadvantage. At our level, that often gets jumped on very quickly. You lose the game 4-3.... it is your fault. There's your deterrent.

Now, put yourself in the managers shoes... what would you be thinking now that someone's gob has lost you a game and 1-3 points. There's your deterrent.

Referees must get behind this scheme if it is to be a success.

As for the "logistical nightmare for a single ref".... have you even looked at the stats?!? It will not be a nightmare at all.
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
Is the sin bin in conjunction with a YC?
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Yellow card is still shown, however there is no £10 admin fee for a 'sinbinning'. Still counts towards the player's caution count for the season (i.e. 5 before 31 December = 1 match ban and £15 fine, 10 before the second Sunday in April = 2 matches and £15 fine, 15 = 3 matches and £15), still counts towards that team's disciplinary points (i.e. the club gets a misconduct charge if they exceed 75 points), and it still counts towards the team's Respect sanctions (6 = warning, 10 = fine (£50, £75 or £150 depending on the level), 15 = fine doubled, 20 = misconduct charge).
 
I agree that it's a harsher penalty - but the problem with that is that it only makes it harder for the referees to give. Dissent is not an easy card to give, especially if you are not 100% confident in the decision that is being dissented. It is almost certainly being underused and I think that's because a yellow card can already feel like a fairly harsh punishment in the heat of the moment. A fine and half way to a permanent dismissal, which would make a huge difference to the match - that's a significant action.

I don't see how making the punishment harsher is that answer to that problem, it just makes it even harder for a referee to mentally justify taking action. And I'm worried that fewer dissent cautions will be seen as a success of the scheme, where I think in reality, we need to be very careful not to simply end up punishing dissent less and actually making the situation worse.
 
It's not about making it a harsher punishment... It's about making it more of a deterrent.

If a referee finds it hard to "mentally justify" it, do they have a strong enough character to be in the middle in the first place?
 
Thing is I think it would be better if they did make it for all cautions. Nothing changes then other than the punishment.

Just don't dig it
 
DB said:
It's not about making it a harsher punishment... It's about making it more of a deterrent.

If a referee finds it hard to "mentally justify" it, do they have a strong enough character to be in the middle in the first place?
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Harsher punishment = more of a deterrent and softer punishment = less of a deterrent surely?

I've suggested that the real problem with dissent is that referees currently tend to have too high a bar before reaching for a dissent caution - do you disagree with this? I don't think the way to solve this problem is by making the punishment have a greater influence on the game, I think that will only make the problem worse.

And you've deliberately quoted two words out of context there - the word "harder" is very important to the point I was making. It's harder to feel like a dissent caution is fair when you actually think there's a chance the player might be right than it is when you know you're right and they're wrong. The referee's "character" doesn't come into it.
 
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The harsher punishment between the two is the ten minutes off the field, by a long shot. It will be a much bigger deterrent than a £10 fine.

A player dishing it out to you should be cautioned for dissent, regardless of whether he is right or wrong.

The stats are so simple to read but people, mainly referees are making a massive fuss about it all. It really isn't going to be hard to manage.
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Give us the 10 yard advancement of ANY FK which is greeted by 'strong' dissent or crowding of the MO and the problem will dissipate very very quickly, if it goes into the box then its a penalty, period!!!! That will shut the fookers up, and if we don't shut them up their own team mates will when it starts costing them goals!!!! You heard it here first!!!
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Agreed
 
DB said:
The harsher punishment between the two is the ten minutes off the field, by a long shot. It will be a much bigger deterrent than a £10 fine.

A player dishing it out to you should be cautioned for dissent, regardless of whether he is right or wrong.

The stats are so simple to read but people, mainly referees are making a massive fuss about it all. It really isn't going to be hard to manage.
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I'm not sure if you're ignoring my posts or not getting them, but I'll try to explain it one more time to make sure.

I agree that 10 mins off the field is a harsher punishment. However I think the current problem is that referees are not punishing dissent often enough, and that is probably a result of the fact that a yellow card is already a fairly strong punishment. This view is probably reinforced by the face that we are frequently encouraged to manage dissent multiple times before going to our pocket. As a result, I don't think a sin bin is going to encourage more use of the cards, I think it's going to encourage less - which is the absolute wrong outcome.

I think the stats will be very easy to misread. A reduction in the number of dissent cautions will not necessarily be the same thing as a reduction in the amount of dissent. It could be that, but it could just as easily be the fact that referees become less willing to show a card for dissent as a result of the harsher punishment that would incur - and the concern that if they're wrong and the disagreement is justified, they're compounding the original mistake. Please explain to me the statistical method that would allow me to tell those two things apart?
 
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DB said:
It's not about making it a harsher punishment... It's about making it more of a deterrent.

If a referee finds it hard to "mentally justify" it, do they have a strong enough character to be in the middle in the first place?
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How is it more of a deterrent if a player who gets 2 sin bins, instead of being sent off, can be replaced by a substitute..........that means a player can give a referee grief, twice, and the team suffers no penalty for it?

Absolute joke. What's worse is the feeble minded simpletons who think it's a good idea.

Talk about turkeys voting for Xmas.

GraemeS said:
Dissent is not an easy card to give...
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What???????

Easiest card of the lot. Just need referees with backbone.
 
I'm not a big fan of fines at local football just for the sake of it, yes, if its correct and deserved then its no issue but we shouldn't be throwing cards out like confetti just for the hell of it, Any scheme that seems to work for the benefit of the game must surely be encouraged and trailed. There are positives to the sin bin i'm sure, maybe both schemes running simultaneously would give the referee all the options to deal with each situation on merit!
Imagine the big Centre half bawling in your face seeing his side conceding a FK on the edge of the box and then seeing it upgraded to a penalty and 10 minutes in the Sin Bin :devil::devil::devil:.....That should quieten him down for the next time!!! :smoke::smoke::smoke:
 
Padfoot said:
What???????

Easiest card of the lot. Just need referees with backbone.
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You might think so. But the fact that dissent is considered a problem that needs dealing with via such drastic measures as sin bins suggests that you might be the exception rather than the rule there....
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Imagine the big Centre half bawling in your face seeing his side conceding a FK on the edge of the box and then seeing it upgraded to a penalty and 10 minutes in the Sin Bin :devil::devil::devil:.....That should quieten him down for the next time!!! :smoke::smoke::smoke:
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Same problem.

If your average referee knows that the only option he has if he doesn't want to ignore the dissent and get on with the FK is to make a game changing decision like that, then all you're doing is pushing that dissent bar higher and higher. We need to think of ways to move it lower and make it easier for referees to punish dissent if we actually want them to do something about it.

Giving them a choice of ignoring it or making a game changing decision will just lead to more referees ignoring it and condoning it via inaction in my opinion.
 
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