A&H

Saints v Spied on Derby

........And I quote....."Offside is an objective decision
This is a crucial point, and why those shouting that the incident was not "a clear and obvious error" are arguing over an irrelevance.

The "clear and obvious error" consideration within VAR will only be used for subjective decisions -- penalties, fouls, possible red cards. They are decisions which are open to interpretation, and they are also the calls that the VAR can ask the match referee to look at again on his pitchside monitor.

But offside is different. You are offside or you are not. It's a factual decision based on the position of, usually, two players on the pitch. The same goes for the ball going out of play, it is objective and will never be judged on being "a clear and obvious error."

The only thing that can be subjective about an offside decision is whether a goalkeeper's line of sight has been impeded''.

var-handbook-v8_final

Apology is expected!!
 
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The Referee Store
Apology? You're arguing against your own post there. Maybe you need to apologise to yourself then?
Calling for an apology because somebody disagreed with you - that's rich!!!

🤣Do go on, this is entertaining. Don't sprain an ankle tripping over yourself 🤣🤣

I mean, you still managed to get some things wrong. There is subjectivity on whether a defender has played the ball, and in all many other aspects of "interfering with an opponent". Blocking a keeper's view isn't the only way that can occur.

Additionally on a number of occasions that handbook refers to offside POSITION as the factual part. Not involvement.
Finally, i have no idea where your "quotes" come from. It certainly isn't from the handbook you've provided, even though your post implies otherwise. I presume that's an oversight and not intended deception, but it is misleading.
 
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Whether a player was stood in an offside position or not is black and white, there cannot be any argument on that. The human opinion only comes in when it comes to looking at whether they interfered with an opponent, gained an advantage, etc.

The Derby player was offside, even if just by millimetres. There was no argument about interference, so we either accept VAR or we don't. As I said on a previous topic, I would rather accept a professionally calibrated system than people watching in the crowd or TV replays.
 
I've no issue with a bloke in a studio making a final decision, like rugby, it works, VAR in this form is not that, its a blooming mess!!

Either they review everything or what's the point, it will get there anyway like we said 3-4 years ago when it first appeared.

The flow of the game has GONE, the excitement for the crowd has GONE, the players were ready to take a blooming kick off it was that obvious FFS!! Yes, it was a correct decision, but where does that end, that foul 2 minutes earlier or the toe offside, no-body knows, they're making it up as they go along!!! We want right decisions, who doesn't, but to spoil 150 years of history overnight is pathetic just to please the press and social media brigade. Its reminding me of Brexit and all its forms, no-one really knows what they want!!

Reference used

http://www.espn.com/soccer/english-...ective-decision-not-a-clear-and-obvious-error
 
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It was part of the play that scored a goal. Not sure what you're complaining about on this one.....
Sheffields Finest said:
I've no issue with a bloke in a studio making a final decision, like rugby, it works, VAR in this form is not that, its a blooming mess!!

Either they review everything or what's the point, it will get there anyway like we said 3-4 years ago when it first appeared.


Reference used

http://www.espn.com/soccer/english-...ective-decision-not-a-clear-and-obvious-error
Click to expand...
..... And why are you quoting a sports broadcaster on their LOTG comments? At least the handbook you linked demonstrated the broadcaster doesn't know what they're talking about. As always..
As I'm sure you know.
 
We have been through this before but my opinion on this one more time.

Reality of offside is black and white, factual. Determining that 'fact' is currently not black and white. The decision to determine the fact can still end up wrong. We don't have adequate technology to support very close instances. There is some guess work involved. In legal terms, a person has either committed a crime or has not, its back and white. But we are using circumstantial evidence to make the decision and that has a chance of getting it wrong.

If the VAR only had one image from behind the goal with no virtual line, he would be making a factual decision but it would be a wild guess. Having a side on camera angle and a virtual line on the ground (while we really need a virtual plane/surface) only makes that decision an more accurate guess but it doesn't make it a 100% representation of facts.

The laws have a provision for being level. Can a VAR determine the attacker is level? Is being 3mm in front level? How about 0.1mm or 0.001mm. Can the technology used tell the VAR how far in front the attacker is? Again, while the reality is black and white, the decision is not.

The solution is simple for me. Get the technology to make the decision for you independent of VAR. If you can't do that only intervene if there is conclusive evidence that the AR got it wrong. Otherwise the VAR decision and be just as bad/good as the AR so why intervene.
 
Well.....as we've established in this thread, the only objective aspect is offside position and whether or not the ball was touched. Determining interfering with an opponent is a subjective decision. As is whether a defender has nullified offside. So, no, not black and white.
But given most decisions are 'interfering with play', yes most of it is an objective, black and white decision.

But I disagree with your point - we DO have the technology to tell if the AR got it wrong. VAR uses hawkeye. The only real problem is when the torso might be affecting the offside line because national comps aren't using the 3D version the world cup used.

What I hate is that we don't get to see the VAR Hawkeye footage. A couple of incidents over the last few weeks where there's either a close offside leading up to a penalty where we have no idea if VAR looked at it, or where a goal was disallowed due to a tight offside - Hawkeye would settle all arguments, instead to the fans it looks like a horrendous VAR decision when it was probably right.
(I only say 'probably' because they have Hawkeye - the aussie VAR is still a joke for the most part!)
 
one said:
Does hawkeye thell the VAR if the player is in an offside position or does the VAR look at a picture and determines that?
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Hawkeye draws precise digital lines - far better than the lines the broadcasters use - to tell who is on and who is off
 
Surely that system is VAR2, we haven't got VAR1 to work or be used fully yet!! The costs seem to be spiralling too!!! Do they take it out of the referees pay pot?? :rolleyes:
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
Hawkeye draws precise digital lines - far better than the lines the broadcasters use - to tell who is on and who is off
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So let's say in reality (fact) an attacker on the far side is offside by 1.5mm to a defender on the near side. The relevant Hawkeye image is shown to 10 different VARs independently and asked to determine
1. Offside
2. Level
3. Onside

How many of them do you think will get this right. My guess is 1/3 :)
 
one said:
So let's say in reality (fact) an attacker on the far side is offside by 1.5mm to a defender on the near side. The relevant Hawkeye image is shown to 10 different VARs independently and asked to determine
1. Offside
2. Level
3. Onside

How many of them do you think will get this right. My guess is 1/3 :)
Click to expand...
And your guess is based on what? This is pointless. Nobody here knows what the resolution of the Hawkeye imaging and tracking is - heck, wouldn't surprise me if it's different in different competitions with different cameras used.

Hawkeye 2D is used in the HAL. Hawkeye 3D was used in the world cup - and there were a few videos floating around on here showing how it works. I'd presume the EPL would use Hawkeye.
 
What does the VAR protocol say on the subject of offside? Or is that even relevant since to protocol is so often ignored?
 
Interestingly, in a room full of 100 or so refs the other night, i didn't hear one positive voice on the subject of VAR, other than AT's. He would have sided with @CapnBloodbeard on this subject i reckon, but few others in the room were 'onside'.
I stated that VAR was meant to be maximum impact, minimal interference, but the protocol is drifting further and further away from the latter. Until hawkeye can instantly buzz the assistant (or similar), the constant reviews are a disaster imo
I'd rather have the assistant's call, right or wrong
 
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