The Ref Stop

Player not on teamsheet

This happened at the Wythenshawe Town v Macclesfield FA Cup Extra Preliminary round tie yesterday.

On 71 minutes, Wythenshawe introduced a sub that wasn’t named on the teamsheet. I don’t know who spotted the error but soon there was a long delay and a protracted discussion. The referee dismissed the ineligible player. Is this correct? I guess he was an outside agent, and the rule states that the ref must remove the outside agent from the field of play. I think Wythenshawe were arguing that they should be able to reintroduce the substituted player or replace the ineligible player with an eligible substitute, but this wasn’t allowed to happen. The rules don’t seem explicit on this issue.
 

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The Ref Stop
To be honest they might have well stopped the game at that point as the winning team would likely be expelled from the competition.
 
Only had it once in 5 years of reffing and it was caught before the player entered FOP.

Did the ref / assistant not take a name?
 
Dino Ref said:
Only had it once in 5 years of reffing and it was caught before the player entered FOP.

Did the ref / assistant not take a name?
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No idea. There was a lot of confusion, argument and delay. Looked like the officials missed the issue initially, and once the assistant had realised it and drawn the ref’s attention to it, the ineligible player had been on the field with the ball in play - so I guess at that point, they had no option but to send him off.
 
Curious situation really.
My gut feeling is the original player should have been allowed to return or another named substitute should have been allowed to enter.
 
You can get level 7s doing their first lines on the first round of the FA Cup; you'd hope with the size of crows Macclesfield bring that wasn't the case.

Instinct is to let him carry on and report it.
to the competition afterwards.

Not the same thing but when have had a player giving a name you know to be false Birmingham County have said you have to let them play if they insist that's his real name.
 
This is why it is so important you take your time as senior AR at this level with subs, you must have a list of the subs and if they aren't listed they don't come on. Haven't checked the results, but if Wythenshawe won it will be replaced and all three officials will be getting three weeks' rest.
 
M1EYP said:
He came on late in the game. Let's hope he recovers his radar... (watch from the 9 minute mark).
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More than just the subs incident.

The sending off was a bit confusing too at 8m 30s. Not particularly clear who was getting carded for what and when!

It looks like first YC for Blue 12 but he was nowhere in sight, then a second yellow for Blue 3 for dissent who was right in his face at the point he (presumably) was cautioning B12.
 
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Viridis1886 said:
More than just the subs incident.

The sending off was a bit confusing too at 8m 30s. Not particularly clear who was getting carded for what and when!

It looks like first YC for Blue 12 but he was nowhere in sight, then a second yellow for Blue 3 for dissent who was right in his fa e at the point he (presumably) was cautioning B12.
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Yeah that's about right. There were two sendings off in quick succession but these highlights don't really show the first. It turns out it was the Macclesfield manager that pointed out to the assistant referee that Blue 17 (who'd just come on - Palma) had not been listed by Wythenshawe on the team sheet submitted to the referee. By this stage he was on the park and playing. Hence he was dismissed from the field of play (outside agent). The Wythenshawe captain (Blue 3 - Wright) started mouthing off at the referee, who booked him for dissent. He didn't take the hint and continued mouthing off, and so the referee gave him a second yellow and dismissed him. Hence Wythenshawe went from 11 players to 9 in a single break of play.
 
I don’t think they should be down to 9 from what is described. If the outside agent came in for a player, it wasn’t an actual sub, and the original player, as far as I can tell, remained a player eligible to return to the pitch (or to be subbed for). The non-sub shouldn’t have been shown a red card, but just removed from the field as someone who never should have been on the field.
 
socal lurker said:
I don’t think they should be down to 9 from what is described. If the outside agent came in for a player, it wasn’t an actual sub, and the original player, as far as I can tell, remained a player eligible to return to the pitch (or to be subbed for). The non-sub shouldn’t have been shown a red card, but just removed from the field as someone who never should have been on the field.
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exact what I would have typed.

what on earth could the red card even be issued for?

having watched what am guessing is the sub incident 7 min 40 on clip, the AR is caught out by blue coming off, as he is trying to deal witn white coming on
Multiple subs are difficult, key is slow it down, and by whatever means necessary, ensure your, and ref, books are updated and correct, if blue 17 is to come on, blue 17 will be hopefully pre recorded in both books? At very least dialogue is needed here, bit shabby if both ref and ar suddenly had a blue 17 in their book which ( i presume', they never had before
 
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RustyRef said:
This is why it is so important you take your time as senior AR at this level with subs, you must have a list of the subs and if they aren't listed they don't come on. Haven't checked the results, but if Wythenshawe won it will be replaced and all three officials will be getting three weeks' rest.
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I'm sure you've explained / discussed this in another thread and I may be asking you a question you can't answer but if I am the junior AR, why should I get suspended for the senior AR not doing their duty?

Also as a ref surely you trust your senior AR and aren't double checking every name that comes on.
 
Dino Ref said:
I'm sure you've explained / discussed this in another thread and I may be asking you a question you can't answer but if I am the junior AR, why should I get suspended for the senior AR not doing their duty?

Also as a ref surely you trust your senior AR and aren't double checking every name that comes on.
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In matters of fact, admin, incorrect restarts of play, all officials carry the can
( not talking was it a corner/goal kick ball out of play etc but from technical offences), and for example, if an idfk was given as a goal, in either net

Sounds unfair at face value but bigger picture, the FA, league, whoever, entrust the officials, note, officials, to be not just accurate, but, exact with matters of fact

how the officials get these things right is down to them on the day.


on your second point, its essential the referee book is million per cent correct, what when the ref goes to take the next sub himself, as the Ar is at the corner flag? He cannot correctly do this if he is unaware of what has went on before
 
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socal lurker said:
I don’t think they should be down to 9 from what is described. If the outside agent came in for a player, it wasn’t an actual sub, and the original player, as far as I can tell, remained a player eligible to return to the pitch (or to be subbed for). The non-sub shouldn’t have been shown a red card, but just removed from the field as someone who never should have been on the field.
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Agree in general, but I assume what's happened is he's committed a YC offence (which we see in the video, stonewall yellow, don't know what the #3 has lost his head about at first!), the referee has gone to note the booking and then realised at that point the player isn't on the team sheet. Which arguably mandates another yellow for entering without permission?

I've refereed in leagues without team sheets, so it can't be the case that "being on the team sheet" is what defines you as a player. If he's been sent on and it hasn't been spotted by the AR or a team official at that point, he becomes a player when he steps onto the pitch - after which, if he's sent off then his team will play with a man down and the sub can't just be reversed.

For me, he's definitely a player. The question is, what constitutes "permission" to enter the FOP? The AR will have waved him on, but is that valid to do if he's not on the team sheet in the first place, or does that omission mean he can't ever properly have permission to enter during the game?
 
Anubis said:
In matters of fact, admin, incorrect restarts of play, all officials carry the can
( not talking was it a corner/goal kick ball out of play etc but from technical offences), and for example, if an idfk was given as a goal, in either net

Sounds unfair at face value but bigger picture, the FA, league, whoever, entrust the officials, note, officials, to be not just accurate, but, exact with matters of fact

how the officials get these things right is down to them on the day.


on your second point, its essential the referee book is million per cent correct, what when the ref goes to take the next sub himself, as the Ar is at the corner flag? He cannot correctly do this if he is unaware of what has went on before
Click to expand...

especially when it comes to incorrect restarts / discipline which clearly happens here
 
GraemeS said:
Agree in general, but I assume what's happened is he's committed a YC offence (which we see in the video, stonewall yellow, don't know what the #3 has lost his head about at first!), the referee has gone to note the booking and then realised at that point the player isn't on the team sheet. Which arguably mandates another yellow for entering without permission?

I've refereed in leagues without team sheets, so it can't be the case that "being on the team sheet" is what defines you as a player. If he's been sent on and it hasn't been spotted by the AR or a team official at that point, he becomes a player when he steps onto the pitch - after which, if he's sent off then his team will play with a man down and the sub can't just be reversed.

For me, he's definitely a player. The question is, what constitutes "permission" to enter the FOP? The AR will have waved him on, but is that valid to do if he's not on the team sheet in the first place, or does that omission mean he can't ever properly have permission to enter during the game?
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From the video, it looks as though the AR asked the player coming on, he said "He's gone off behind you" and went on while the AR was handling the other team's substitution. No name taken.
Learning point for the AR: take your time, manage each substitution one at a time.
 
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