Penalty?

[The Don]

At a game I attended on Saturday a forward pass caused the Assistant to raise his flag for offside and a defender seeing it, and in his own Penalty Area, caught the ball in his hands in anticipation of a decision but before the Referee whistled for the infringement. The opposition shouted for a ‘penalty’ but when the referee eventually blew his whistle to stop the game, he awarded a free-kick for offside.

If players are encouraged to ‘play to the whistle’ should a penalty have been awarded and the player receive a red card for denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity?
I am not a referee but a supporter of Non League football.

 

[Trip]

Unless the referee wanted to overrule the assistant on the offside decision (which is rare) then the offside offence occurred first, so there was no handball offence.

 

[The Don]

Thanks for your response. The point I was trying to make was that the ball was still in play when the defender handled it. The referee did not stop play until some 3 seconds later (at a rough guess). Was it not the case of the player "taking the Law" into his own hands (if you'll pardon the pun)?
Just playing Devils Advocate, you understand.

 

[Anubis]

The flag is the communication tool from AR to referee.

the ball is still live, until the referee decides, if he is goimg to, to accept the ar flag.
if the offside offence came first, its offside.

very risky from defender though.

 

[RustyRef]

At a guess I would say the referee was planning on playing advantage, but once the player handles the ball he will always be giving the free kick. The offside offence happened before the handling whether or not the whistle went. A massive risk by the defender as had the referee overruled the AR on the offside it could then become a defender.

 

[The Don]

The flag is the communication tool from AR to referee.

the ball is still live, until the referee decides, if he is goimg to, to accept the ar flag.
if the offside offence came first, its offside.

very risky from defender though.

Thanks. I agree about the defender. However the referee was being Observed and it would be interesting to see what the Observer put in his report as he was sitting close to me and had a sharp intake of breath at the time.

 

[Anubis]

Thanks. I agree about the defender. However the referee was being Observed and it would be interesting to see what the Observer put in his report as he was sitting close to me and had a sharp intake of breath at the time.

Observor should be fine about it, barring a potential one on one clash for example, there is no need to blow quickly, flag up, ref should know, ref then takes a sec to survey the scene, can he play on, is the ball running thro to the gk etc, or even no, am not taking the offside, the guy being flagged is not involved in the play.

 

[The Don]

At a guess I would say the referee was planning on playing advantage,

That was my thought at the time, although he didn't indicate it. The defender could have controlled the ball and cleared it.

Thanks guys.

 

[socal lurker]

It doesn’t matter a wit if the whistle had blown or not. If the OS infraction occurred first, that is the one that is penalized. Period.

the interesting question that can arise on some of these types of plays is if the ARs flag was premature, and there wasn’t really an OS offense because no interference had occurred.

 

[The Don]

it doesn’t matter a wit if the whistle had blown or not.

Sorry to draw this out but isn't play live until the ball goes out of play or the Referee stops play by blowing his whistle? If a defender had kicked another player (serious foul play) in the Penalty area but an offside occurred immediately before that, only the offside would have been penalized?

 

[Ben448844]

At a game I attended on Saturday a forward pass caused the Assistant to raise his flag for offside and a defender seeing it, and in his own Penalty Area, caught the ball in his hands in anticipation of a decision but before the Referee whistled for the infringement. The opposition shouted for a ‘penalty’ but when the referee eventually blew his whistle to stop the game, he awarded a free-kick for offside.

If players are encouraged to ‘play to the whistle’ should a penalty have been awarded and the player receive a red card for denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity?
I am not a referee but a supporter of Non League football.

Put yourself in the refs shoes. Do you (A) want to give a pen and deal with the huge fallout from that or do you (B) want to give offside, jog away with your arm up and the whole thing is forgotten 10 mins later???

If the answer is A then go back to the question and repeat until you get to answer B.

 

[The Don]

I would prefer a correct decision within the Laws of the Game irrespective of the 'fallout'.

 

[Ben448844]

I would prefer a correct decision within the Laws of the Game irrespective of the 'fallout'.

OK good luck with that. I won't turn the conversation towards the 6 second law and all the other things in the LOTG we ignore.

Just my advice, especially if it's grass roots. But we all walk our own paths.

 

[one]

isn't play live until the ball goes out of play or the Referee stops play by blowing his whistle?

Not entirely accurate. The part about blowing his whistle is not necessary. 'Play is dead' (ball is out of play) when the referee decides it is. The blowing of the whistle is just a signal for that decision which can happen moments later. The decision can be retrospective, in cases of advantage for example.

Imagine a foul and then the ball going over the line for a corner before the referee has a chance to blow the whistle for the foul. Surly we don't say the ball was live when it went out and award the corner. It was dead when the referee decided the foul had occured.

 

[socal lurker]

Sorry to draw this out but isn't play live until the ball goes out of play or the Referee stops play by blowing his whistle? If a defender had kicked another player (serious foul play) in the Penalty area but an offside occurred immediately before that, only the offside would have been penalized?

That would be apples and oranges.

The first offense is punished and that determines the restart. When the whistle blows is totally irrelevant in this scenario. It is about when the offense occurs.*

In your new scenario, it cannot be Serious Foul Play, as it is not a foul if an OS offense occurred first. It can, however, be violent conduct, which would also be a send off. The OS will be called and determine the restart, and the miscreant will be sent off (but the send off does not change the restart).

_______
*Where the first and second offense are by the same team, things can play out a bit differently. If the R has not whistled and a more serious offense occurs, the R can apply advantage to the first offense and punish the second. For example, if an attacker is fouled outside the PA, but before the R whistles he is fouled again inside the PA, the R can properly award a PK. But that is because he can apply advantage to the first offense.

 

[The Don]

'Play is dead' (ball is out of play) when the referee decides it is.

This is what puzzles me in various replies. How do the players know what the referee has decided if he does not signal (i.e. blows his whistle) to stop play? We all know that players are can be cautioned if they carry on playing after the whistle is blown. I was always taught to "play to the whistle" - no whistle - keep playing. Has this changed?

 

[RustyRef]

This is what puzzles me in various replies. How do the players know what the referee has decided if he does not signal (i.e. blows his whistle) to stop play? We all know that players are can be cautioned if they carry on playing after the whistle is blown. I was always taught to "play to the whistle" - no whistle - keep playing. Has this changed?

Well to use a typical example, if the referee plays advantage, even though these days they don't signal it until after the advantage has accrued, they would still go back to the first offence committed.

Or to use a different example, there's an offside and the referee goes to blow the whistle but drops it. In the time between him picking it up and blowing it the offside attacker is fouled in the penalty area. The restart is still an offside, as play is stopped when the referee decides it is stopped, not when the whistle sounds.

That has always been the case, "play to the whistle" has always just been a coaching thing to encourage players not to assume they are getting a free kick and stop playing.

 

[one]

This is what puzzles me in various replies. How do the players know what the referee has decided if he does not signal (i.e. blows his whistle) to stop play? We all know that players are can be cautioned if they carry on playing after the whistle is blown. I was always taught to "play to the whistle" - no whistle - keep playing. Has this changed?

The phrase "play to the whistle" is a bit misleading. It should be "play to the referee's decision". The player continue playing until the referee give a signal, whistle or otherwise. Until then as far as players are concerned the decision is play on. But that is not what the referee is obliged to do. "Play to the whistle" has not changed. But the point is you are misinterpreting its meaning as when play stops. See my example of foul/corner above.

I think I am also going to open the can of worms and address what I think OP is suggesting. It wont be the first time an AR has raised the flag too early before the offside offence has been committed. If this was the case and the AR indeed raised the flag too early, what should the referee do? This is not black and white and differs with every situation. In the OP case, it sound like an offside offence was about to happen. In this case the only fair option is to call the offside even though it had not happened yet and technically penalty is the 'more correct' call. This case can never be a DOGSO (denying and obvious goal scoring opportunity) because had the defender let the ball through and attacker played it, it would not have been a goal but offside.

 

[Anubis]

This is what puzzles me in various replies. How do the players know what the referee has decided if he does not signal (i.e. blows his whistle) to stop play? We all know that players are can be cautioned if they carry on playing after the whistle is blown. I was always taught to "play to the whistle" - no whistle - keep playing. Has this changed?

If things are getting taken to the nth degree, strip it back to the basics, that flag is a tool for the ar to use to inform the referee of something
Run of the mill, it be, ball out of play, and the direction the ar has judged the throw to go, however, the referee is not legally bound to accept this, of course a huge majority of the time its accepted, esp on ball out of play, but quite normal for referee to see flag point throw to blue, yet referee goes with white.
Ar likewise might see what they consider to be a foul, hopefully in an area credible for them to get involved. Whilst majority of time referee will accept the flag, he does not have to. Ref might say, no foul, play on. Might play an attacking team advantage.
the ar is there to offer assistance to the referee.
On the offside call, it sounds like the referee was simply delaying blowing up, and, waiting to see, can we play this on. ( in my experience its rare to see an actual advantage signal here). If offside attacking 9 is flagged, yet the ball runs to the feet of defending 5, 9 is not involved in the play, and 5 say has control of the ball, 9, providing from his offside position has not interferred with an opponent etc, 9, although maybe having been in an offside position, has not committed an offence by being there..
Defender seeing flag and picking ball up, unless the offside is really so muchHo not an offside, should result in a tuned in referee thinking on his feet and now blowing quickly, and accepting the offside.

Was a great clip locally last season of a high defensive line, say in line with the half way semi circle, attacking 9 being the furthest forward, ball got lobbed from the semi circle other half, in direction of 9, flag went up from AR.
However, it was entirely too early, 9 never moved, instead 10, who had been in his own half, ran onto the chipped ball. Ball ran thro to gk, who then, being aware flag had been up, walked the ball with his feet some 40 yards up the pitch, then picked it up, to set it up for what he thought waa the offside restarr!
Ref had of course waved flag down, ( there was no sound on the clip sp i dont know if ref shouted)
The referee then correctly penalised the gk for the handling offence.
My description of the incident is prob not great but point is, the flag is a signal from ar to ref.

 

[Trip]

This is what puzzles me in various replies. How do the players know what the referee has decided if he does not signal (i.e. blows his whistle) to stop play? We all know that players are can be cautioned if they carry on playing after the whistle is blown. I was always taught to "play to the whistle" - no whistle - keep playing. Has this changed?

That advice is from coaches: don't assume the referee will stop the game until he actually blows. The guy in your scenario was taking a big risk by handling the ball before the whistle had gone and if I were his coach I would remind him to play to the whistle.

The referee can retrospectively decide that the ball was no longer in play following an offence. It takes a moment to get the whistle to your mouth and in many (actually most) cases the referee will check for possible advantage before deciding that the ball was not in play as of a few seconds ago.