The Ref Stop

Junior/Youth No red card?

snap_RL

snap_RL

New Member
I coach an U15 team on Sundays. We were 1-0 down, half way through the second half today. Our striker was put through to a one on one with their keeper, who came racing out his area. Our striker lobbed the ball over him - or at least he tried to, before the keeper jumped up and swatted it away with his hand. He was 5 yards outside his area. The ref blew for the free kick and I waited for the red card for DOGSO. Nope. He gave him a yellow. I didn't shout anything towards the ref right then (that's not my style). But I had a quiet word at the end of the game with the ref. He said that he felt bad about sending off a 14 year old for a natural reaction to block the lob with his hand. I explained that it was within the LOTG that a red should be automatic. The ref said it wasn't automatic and was down to his discretion.

Am I going mad?

Has anyone else experienced non application of the LOTG because "they're only kids". 😡😡
 
The Ref Stop
Happens more often than you think, often cards are downgraded at youth. Not correct in law and understand your frustration but spirit of the game will come into his decision and he may not have wanted to send off a 14 year old leading to fine and ban. He should’ve been sent off and I would have sent him off as they know what they’re doing at u15 but understandable from the refs POV. As I’m sure you’ll know we don’t want to send off kids
 
Not enough facts. The red would be appropriate if, ITOOTR, either (1) the ball was going to score or (2) the attacker was likely to collect it behind the GK to score. If the R thought it wasn’t going in, and it was either going out of play or a defender was likely to get it, then a caution would be proper. It is not, as you describe the ref having said, in his discretion, but it does matter what his opinion was of what was going to happen and therefore whether it was an obvious goal scoring opportunity. (I agree the 15U is too old to just look the other way on DOGSO.)
 
Handling outside the area isn't necessarily a red card. I did a game years ago where the keeper came out and as it was lobbed over her she handled it. I was directly in a straight line with me at the back, the attacker in the middle and the keeper at the end and I was 100% certain the shot was going wide, so as there were no other attacking players up with play I went yellow. Of course the attacking team went ballistic as there is this misconception that any handling outside the area is a mandatory red card.
 
Like SL and RR said it depends on the situation but assuming the scenario you described he should have been sent off but no refs enjoy sending off 15 year olds if they can avoid it
 
snap_RL said:
I coach an U15 team on Sundays. We were 1-0 down, half way through the second half today. Our striker was put through to a one on one with their keeper, who came racing out his area. Our striker lobbed the ball over him - or at least he tried to, before the keeper jumped up and swatted it away with his hand. He was 5 yards outside his area. The ref blew for the free kick and I waited for the red card for DOGSO. Nope. He gave him a yellow. I didn't shout anything towards the ref right then (that's not my style). But I had a quiet word at the end of the game with the ref. He said that he felt bad about sending off a 14 year old for a natural reaction to block the lob with his hand. I explained that it was within the LOTG that a red should be automatic. The ref said it wasn't automatic and was down to his discretion.

Am I going mad?

Has anyone else experienced non application of the LOTG because "they're only kids". 😡😡
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Good question and a typical example of predicament in youth football
Although there are various guidelines regarding 'Denying an Obvious Goalscoring Opportunity, it sounds likely that the offender should have been dismissed. In the real world, a lot depends upon the division in which the teams play and other factors like the scoreline. Personally, I'm all for educating kids wherever possible, so sometimes a frank discussion is better that a £30 fine for the club or the parents.
In a nutshell, if the kids are good enough that they do know better, or if the incident is likely to effect the outcome of the game, the Laws of the Game are more important than coaching the players; and the culprit should learn the hard way via a red card
 
socal lurker said:
Not enough facts. The red would be appropriate if, ITOOTR, either (1) the ball was going to score or (2) the attacker was likely to collect it behind the GK to score. If the R thought it wasn’t going in, and it was either going out of play or a defender was likely to get it, then a caution would be proper. It is not, as you describe the ref having said, in his discretion, but it does matter what his opinion was of what was going to happen and therefore whether it was an obvious goal scoring opportunity. (I agree the 15U is too old to just look the other way on DOGSO.)
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Yeah fair points, but defo 2)
 
I had a similar incident yesterday at a U15 five-a-side tournament final. The final was 8 minutes each half. Both teams had played a dozen games to reach the final during a hot day reaching 90 degrees. After 30 seconds a one on one with the keeper occurred and the defender was trying his best to pull out of his challenge but his toe clipped the opponent's heel as he was about to shoot. A red card is the norm. But if a team is reduced to 4 players it is literally game over. The contact was, in my opinion completely accidental, so I issued a yellow card which meant the offending team were reduced to 4 players for 2 minutes. I felt this was in the spirit of the game. No goals were scored during the 2 minute ban and but the offending team eventually lost by 4 goals to 1. Despite winning the players' parents and coaches gave me serious grief at the end of the game.
 
I strongly dislike the term bottled it. Its rare a referee actually bottles it.
The ref made a decision (albeit potentially the wrong one) . Bottling it suggests he was intending to send the player off but then didn't.
We can go over this one a thousand times, but, if the referee didn't send off for a handball DOGSO (deny obvious goal scoring opportunity) then he is incorrect in law, and as the manager this should influence the club mark you award him after the game. And if the performance is worthy of it then that mark should be below the threshold to write a written report - although 1 wrong decision shouldn't really warrant that.
 
Is this an English thing? As far as I know in Australia we don't teach or have a non thought leniency towards kids. Actually there is but only in games when no scores or a table is kept.

BrumRef said:
Like SL and RR said it depends on the situation but assuming the scenario you described he should have been sent off but no refs enjoy sending off 15 year olds if they can avoid it
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Truth be told I don't enjoy sending adult players off either* but that doesn't stop me form doing the job I get paid to do.

* Even the mouthy players that eventually get themselves sent off. It's more of anger that I was forced to send them off rather than the joy of doing it.
 
This is one of the major reasons I hated doing anything below U16 football.

You have this conflict between "what is correct in law" and "what is expected from the parents and coaches"

I'm also sympathetic to the referees in this circumstance. Most of the refs doing these types of game are kids themselves and in any situation issuing a red card and sending someone off is a big deal for a referee. It's easy for some of us who are mature adults with a whole pile of life experience to dish out a red card, but if I think about how confident I was at 16 or 17 versus now, it would have been a much bigger deal for me to send a player off then than it is now.

One of the big things I noticed about my development as a referee and I see it in talking to new referees and in posts on here is that one of the hardest things for any new referee to do, especially if they've played the game at all, is 'to show empathy, not sympathy' for players.

Sympathy for them, especially if they've offended leads to a lack of objectivity like"I didn't send the player off as I know they'll miss the cup final next weekend if I do" because you are trying to help the individual player out.

Displaying empathy is very different and it allows you to be far more objective. In my view it's one of the critical skills for a referee to develop as they are learning their craft.
 
RustyRef said:
Handling outside the area isn't necessarily a red card. I did a game years ago where the keeper came out and as it was lobbed over her she handled it. I was directly in a straight line with me at the back, the attacker in the middle and the keeper at the end and I was 100% certain the shot was going wide, so as there were no other attacking players up with play I went yellow. Of course the attacking team went ballistic as there is this misconception that any handling outside the area is a mandatory red card.
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Spot on. I had one years ago where an U15s goalkeeper failed to gather the ball twice and ended up outside his area, very close to goal line when he handled - no oppo nearby. Had a 'discussion' after the match with oppo coach whose 'mate' who was a 'referee' had told him that the GK handling the ball outside the area was 'always' a red card.

Unfortunately his 'mate' hadn't told him which of the 7 sending off offences applied here, or at least he couldn't recall what he had said when I asked him that very question! :rolleyes: :p
 
RustyRef said:
Handling outside the area isn't necessarily a red card. I did a game years ago where the keeper came out and as it was lobbed over her she handled it. I was directly in a straight line with me at the back, the attacker in the middle and the keeper at the end and I was 100% certain the shot was going wide, so as there were no other attacking players up with play I went yellow. Of course the attacking team went ballistic as there is this misconception that any handling outside the area is a mandatory red card.
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And had that been the referee's explanation then I would accept it. But the referee clearly said that the reason he didn't send the GK off was because he felt bad about sending off a 14 year old. That's not an acceptable reason to not make the correct decision.
 
BrumRef said:
How old was the ref?
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In his mid 20s I reckon. I didn't ask him though 😂 The rest of his performance looked like he knew what he was doing, so I don't think he was brand new qualified. It was just this one incident and his words afterwards that I found frustrating.
 
Fair enough. It is very difficult for a young ref to send off anyone tbh but hasn’t helped himself with how he described it and however much I’d like to defend not sending off a kid that’s the only way they’ll learn properly. I had one before lockdown where the ref hadn’t put through the RC for VC the week before and the manager expected me not to put it through but that wasn’t happening and the ref the week before was only considering himself tbh
 
It's part of the reason I don't do youth football. I've never fully understood where the lines are in terms of what's expected for cards etc so I just never bothered because I can't be arsed with the stick from parents or whoever
 
I solely referee youth football and I have found there to be two schools of thought. One is that kids should not be carded for practically anything up until the age of 16. The other is that above U14 you should be carding for anything that the LOTG says is a card. I think there is a middle ground. Yes it’s a learning curve and I don’t want to be throwing cards everywhere at minor infractions, but most of these kids have been playing for years and most of them are taking their GCSEs soon, so should be able to understand the rights and wrong of football. In the case mentioned here, if the player has Denied an obvious goal scoring opportunity then they should be dismissed, otherwise how else will they learn, and as referees, what’s the point of us learning the rules of the game, just to decide they don’t apply based on age.
 
In the US, AYSO discourages the showing of cards at below 12U. But that doesn't mean younger players can't/shouldn't be cautioned or sent off, rather the suggestions is to do it without publicly showing the card on the theory that public embarrassment is unnecessary and counterproductive at those ages. The reality is that at those levels actual misconduct is rare. Past that, cards are used as normal, though what really qualifies as reckless (rather than spastic) or DOGSO (what is an obvious scoring chance with younger less skilled players is less than at older more skilled ages) is going to be different.
 
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