Match Fee’s paid by BACS

[Kes]

Compared to Having to knock on the door of the home team changing room at the end of a game (when you might not be their favourite person) and hang around in the cold for 10 mins on a Sunday morning whilst the manager/captain begrudgingly collects in subs from his players before handing your cash over to you (whilst reminding you that “it was never a penalty”) I’ll take electronic payment every time.

I hear you. We've all been there I'd imagine.

Like I said, the principle of BACS is sound until something goes wrong.

In terms of financial transaction, being handed payment in cash is flawless.

 

[JamesL]

In terms of financial transaction, being handed payment in cash is flawless.

Is it? What if you got home, opened you envelope and it was short. No proof. Which makes the whole concept of handing an envelope pointless as you need to open it and count it on the spot.
BACS, clear as day the amount is on the statement. There is no doubt.
I get cash can be simple but so can BACS. There are pros and cons to both but cash is not flawless by any means.

I think the truth is most people don't want the money going in the bank because the mrs/the taxman can see how much thay are earning.

 

[Kes]

Is it? What if you got home, opened you envelope and it was short. No proof. Which makes the whole concept of handing an envelope pointless as you need to open it and count it on the spot.
BACS, clear as day the amount is on the statement. There is no doubt.
I get cash can be simple but so can BACS. There are pros and cons to both but cash is not flawless by any means.

I think the truth is most people don't want the money going in the bank because the mrs/the taxman can see how much thay are earning.

I couldn't give a monkey's about it appearing on my bank statement James. I'm more concerned about it not appearing.

As for the envelope, here's the deal - simply open up envelope before you leave, look inside. Sure, you may not know for sure if your're 50/60p short of change, but notes are easily discernible. Remember I'm talking grass roots, Dog & Duck level here mate. What, £25-£40 per game tops?

Easy.

 

[JamesL]

I couldn't give a monkey's about it appearing on my bank statement James. I'm more concerned about it not appearing.

As for the envelope, here's the deal - simply open up envelope before you leave, look inside. Sure, you may not know for sure if your're 50/60p short of change, but notes are easily discernible. Remember I'm talking grass roots, Dog & Duck level here mate. What, £25-£40 per game tops?

Easy.

The point is it isn't flawless, as you suggested. You feel it is a better system that's fine. But it isn't flawless

 

[Kes]

The point is it isn't flawless, as you suggested. You feel it is a better system that's fine. But it isn't flawless

No, the point is that (IMO) it is about as flawless as it gets - and especially when compared to BACS. ...

 

[JamesL]

No, the point is that (IMO) it is about as flawless as it gets - and especially when compared to BACS. ...

That's not what you said. You said it was flawless.
I'd also say had 1 payment so far by BACS, it was in my bank before I got home! No cash handled, no chasing. The whole process was, dare I say it... Flawless

 

[Brian Hamilton]

A cashless society might work well for banks and businesses. I'm not sure that charity collectors would share your enthusiasm. As a society we could also say goodbye to such things as small markets, jumble sales, car boot sales etc. To say nothing of how state-dependent people would operate. How many homeless people do you know that have a debit card? The concept of "embracing change" is a nice soundbite but in the modern technological world we still have cash for a reason.

Moreover, regarding the payment of referee's match fees - it's no big deal for the club sec/coach/whatever to hand the ref an envelope with the money in it. Id take it back home, put it in my wallet, (where it's likely stay for several days anyway) and wash my hands.

The finality of doing the fixture, being physically paid and leaving the venue all within a few hours is something you as a referee are able to control.

Ensuring you're paid (in cash) is something you're able to control before you go. Once you've left the venue, you have literally no tangible control over when/how/if you get paid your match fee correctly. Get back home, wait a couple of days, check your bank - no payment/wrong payment - then what? More time spent chasing/phoning/e mailing club or league secretary. The variables on what could go wrong and the sheer hassle of it are endless.

I am of course just playing Devil's advocate here and the above is the worst case scenario, but not all change is good.

52% of charitable donations were made in cash in 2019. This does not take into account the use of tax deductibility which is more frequently used with online donations.

You would be happy to take the cash and leave it sitting for a few days before checking it over going home and having to check your bank account a few days later? I'm not sure what the difference is? The production of a copy of a bank statement would provide proof that you had not been paid more than you saying that someone hadn't given you an envelope. Also you would have proof of the amount received as well. In addition, you are unlikely to receive a bank note which has been forged, is unlikely to be carrying bacteria and/or virus from the 12 people who have handled it in the previous 7 days and/or is out of date.

I’ve done a fair few pre-seasons so far.

One club has been notably more pro-active than all the others with respect to Covid, and when they booked me in to do my first game with them they asked if I was OK to be paid by BACS, which I was.

ive now done three games for that team and no going cap in hand at the end of the game, like some latter day Oliver Twist, “please sir, can I have my match fee.” Just a quick, “cheers fellas” as I’m leaving the ground and next day the money appears in my account. I Can quickly check it’s been paid in by opening an app on my phone - probably quicker than counting a mix of notes and coins!

Compared to Having to knock on the door of the home team changing room at the end of a game (when you might not be their favourite person) and hang around in the cold for 10 mins on a Sunday morning whilst the manager/captain begrudgingly collects in subs from his players before handing your cash over to you (whilst reminding you that “it was never a penalty”) I’ll take electronic payment every time.

All good practice and relatively painless.

Is it? What if you got home, opened you envelope and it was short. No proof. Which makes the whole concept of handing an envelope pointless as you need to open it and count it on the spot.
BACS, clear as day the amount is on the statement. There is no doubt.
I get cash can be simple but so can BACS. There are pros and cons to both but cash is not flawless by any means.

I think the truth is most people don't want the money going in the bank because the mrs/the taxman can see how much thay are earning.

The taxman is generally not interested in anyone not working at Level 4 and below. Even if they were, they are unlikely to spend time chasing the paltry amount they would gather (25% of earnings of 2000 referees making a profit of £500 after allowable deductions per season vs mechanisms required to issue notice of investigation and instruction to the relevant financial institutions). As for hiding money from your spouse? That person deserves everything they get in terms of retribution.

 

[Kes]

That's not what you said. You said it was flawless.
I'd also say had 1 payment so far by BACS, it was in my bank before I got home! No cash handled, no chasing. The whole process was, dare I say it... Flawless

Lol. I'll counter that repost Sir with the simple fact that in 9 years of being paid cash, not once have I been short changed. Ever.

The only time I ever had any drama with payment was after an U12's international club six-a-side tournament I did where payment was retrospectively made via BACS.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Like quarantining stuff from the postie, I won't be waiting 3 days. It's not anthrax. I dunno, I pay attention to credible risk, but have no time for this stuff

The Sunday League I referee in is fantastically well organised. We had a mothers meeting... decided to lead by example on match days, even if the teams showed no interest, but I'm only talking about the stuff that might actually make a minute difference. As referees, I see it as our duty to set 'the' standard, but we have to believe in what's important... being paid in cash is not on my list

Have to agree, not going to trawl the net looking for evidence for or against, but surely IF the virus stayed 'live' on ANYTHING for 3 days, common sense would tell you it would be far more widespread than it has been?

Even before all this my Mum used to tell me to wash my hands (Yes I am nearly 60!) after touching money. As I used to say to her, if illness/disease was spread this way in any sort of meaningful way there wouldn't be anyone left in the shops to serve us!

 

[JamesL]

Lol. I'll counter that repost Sir with the simple fact that in 9 years of being paid cash, not once have I been short changed. Ever.

The only time I ever had any drama with payment was after an U12's international club six-a-side tournament I did where payment was retrospectively made via BACS.

Like I said its fine to say you prefer cash. You just can't say it is flawless.
My experience of vacs payments. Had been good. Uns know if they don't pay it costs more because the county will charge and fine them.
Here stories of clubs refusing payment to refs after games so same issue if BACS doesn't arrive.
Like I said to start there are pros and cons of both.. You prefer cash, ask for cash whilst you can. I expect within 10 yrs it wil be electronic only, and through the same payment system as the clubs are using on whole game.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Covid-19 has been an absolute boon to those wanting to make changes.

For example, The FA is making the use of the Matchday App compulsory from next season - what better time than now to promote it as a means of supporting Covid-19 precautions.

Likewise, those who found that the cost of office space was becoming prohibitive, what better time than now to provide all your staff with permission to work from home. This probably saves your company money on heat, light and power, transferring these costs to the employees.

Another example is the high cost of building, leasing and maintaining large retail units, what better time than now to switch to online sales.

And finally, the cost/security issues around the handing, storing and transporting physical cash has been a thorn in the sides of the banking system for a few decades, providing one of the biggest drivers for maintaining an expensive network of branches. What better time than now to switch to a contactless payment system removing the need for cash. The benefits must be pretty big for the banks otherwise why would they risk the increased potential loss from an increase in contactless limit from £30 to £45 (50%!!!).

The only constant is change and people need to get used to it. If I was still refereeing, I'd rather wait a few days to be paid online than handle notes or coins that may have passed through 12 or more pairs of hands in the week before I received it.

That last bit is where I have the problem - but up until now Brian you have safely negotiated your way through life handling money?

IF illness/disease WAS spread in that way, more than half the world's population would be ill surely? Never heard , for example, that bank employees get ill more than anyone else, which they would surely if handling money was such a 'dangerous' think to do?

 

[Kes]

52% of charitable donations were made in cash in 2019. This does not take into account the use of tax deductibility which is more frequently used with online donations.

Exactly. 52%.

You would be happy to take the cash and leave it sitting for a few days before checking it over going home and having to check your bank account a few days later? I'm not sure what the difference is? The production of a copy of a bank statement would provide proof that you had not been paid more than you saying that someone hadn't given you an envelope. Also you would have proof of the amount received as well.

And what exactly are you going to do with that bank statement in the event of non/incorrect payment? Send it electronically to the club? Send it to the league? (After having first redacted everything on it a week either side of the date in question that you don't want visible to all and sundry). How long would/will that to-ing and fro-ing take? Whoever you send it to then has to ascertain that:

a. Payment wasn't made

and

b. The reason for non-payment (bank details recorded/typed/written down wrongly).

It could take weeks. (In which time you've refereed 3 more matches - 1 of which you don't seem to have received payment for ... again!! ).

Like I said before, worst case scenario, but at the lowest end of the coal face - this is more than possible.

In addition, you are unlikely to receive a bank note which has been forged,

(Open quoted text to read response in full)

Your last point (forged note) is well presented - I hadn't thought of that one.

Cash, if managed correctly is still a damned sight more flawless that BACS any day of the week. @JamesL

 

[JamesL]

Your last point is well presented - I hadn't thought of that one.

Cash, if managed correctly is still a damned sight more flawless that BACS any day of the week. @JamesL

Something can't be more flawless. Flawless, ie it has no flaws, it's perfect, it's absolute, there are no imperfections. Its either flawless. Or it isn't. I have pointed out potential flaws in cash system, whilst few and far between are flaws. I imagine BACS to be similar.

It might be a better or more preferred system, it is however, not flawless.

In answer to the bank statement issue, that's no drama for me, I am using an alternative bank account to my day to day so it will only show. Money going in from clubs and money being transferred to my main account.
Figuring out if it has been paid is simple. What date did you pay it? Check statement for that day, no payment received. Ask club, show us the statement with the payment made. These will be as infrequent as issues with cash payments and much easier to clear up with a clear paper trail.
Fact is, we are headed for cashless football. Whether that be PayPal, BACS, some system setup by the FA for payment of fees (most likely as they have the platform for it already). Would be as simple as assigned referee in said system, pay x amount, the system will then look up the details the referee has stored against his personal account and deposit the money in seconds of the pay ref button being pressed by the club. Easy peasy. The paper trail is created, FA can see immediately if payment has or hasn't been made. Clubs will not with hold payment unnecessarily, as it will cost them more in the long run in fines etc..

 

[Mintyref]

That last bit is where I have the problem - but up until now Brian you have safely negotiated your way through life handling money?

IF illness/disease WAS spread in that way, more than half the world's population would be ill surely? Never heard , for example, that bank employees get ill more than anyone else, which they would surely if handling money was such a 'dangerous' think to do?

But it is a fact that a lot of illness is spread by hand to mouth contact. Most of your stomach bugs and coughs and colds are spread this way. There's a reason you wash your hands after using the toilet, also partly why the term filthy lucre was coined. I work in a local authority and absence due to sickness and dihoerrea has plummeted largely due to the increased hand washing during this crisis.

 

[PinnerPaul]

But it is a fact that a lot of illness is spread by hand to mouth contact. Most of your stomach bugs and coughs and colds are spread this way. There's a reason you wash your hands after using the toilet, also partly why the term filthy lucre was coined. I work in a local authority and absence due to sickness and dihoerrea has plummeted largely due to the increased hand washing during this crisis.

Yes agree, obviously illness IS spread that way, but as I said it can't be THAT prevalent, otherwise much higher proportion of anyone who handles cash all day would be ill. Back on topic - none (or most) of us didn't have a problem with handling cash before all this, so not sure, as TopCat said, this is the most important thing to consider when returning. For balance I think it was James who said it was about lots of little things adding up to make a difference, which I guess is where the avoidance of handling money comes in.

You are correct in your initial point, but will social distancing, handwashing stations, cash avoidance etc remain once/if covid 19 passes? I doubt it.

 

[Yampy]

I'd say the fall in absence is more likely due to the pubs being closed during lockdown and, "the fear of losing my job if I don't show willing". Hand washing is a concept a good many are still struggling to get to grips with (it must be the slippery soap).

 

[Big Cat]

Washing hands negates this whole cash thing anyway. As referees, I'm sure most of us are now equipped with sanitiser and using it like we're brain surgeons, so the 'lots of little things' are taken care of by this basic hygiene instruction

 

[Ben448844]

There is the issue of the club collecting funds to pay you. Some clubs will be proactive and collect subs prior to match day etc. But the fact of the matter is that most clubs have no money in the bank and the manager needs to collect enough money from his 11-14 players to pay the ref.

At grass roots, there will be far more clubs who will remain reliant on collecting cash on the day that will be proactive. The managers, who are already doubling up as physios, groundsmen etc just don't have the time or the inclination to do anything other than collect cash on the day and hand it to the ref after the game. From what I've seen pre season, I can't see this changing much

 

[Mintyref]

Yes agree, obviously illness IS spread that way, but as I said it can't be THAT prevalent, otherwise much higher proportion of anyone who handles cash all day would be ill. Back on topic - none (or most) of us didn't have a problem with handling cash before all this, so not sure, as TopCat said, this is the most important thing to consider when returning. For balance I think it was James who said it was about lots of little things adding up to make a difference, which I guess is where the avoidance of handling money comes in.

You are correct in your initial point, but will social distancing, handwashing stations, cash avoidance etc remain once/if covid 19 passes? I doubt it.

Re your last point, the sooner we're back to the old normal the better........

 

[Brian Hamilton]

That last bit is where I have the problem - but up until now Brian you have safely negotiated your way through life handling money?

IF illness/disease WAS spread in that way, more than half the world's population would be ill surely? Never heard , for example, that bank employees get ill more than anyone else, which they would surely if handling money was such a 'dangerous' think to do?

To be totally honest with you Paul having worked in branch banking for almost 20 years, I stopped handling cash as soon as I could (which was around 2000). For the last 20 years, I have rarely carried/touched cash, with the exception of match fees. Also the use of cash was cited as one of the key transmission vectors when the outbreak started in Wuhan and other areas of China. Bank employees do have high levels of absence which is why the banks have been so "inventive" in their methods of managing absenteeism. I base this on my experience as a union rep and a line manager.