A&H

Manchester City Women vs Arsenal Women

It’s a nailed on promising attack that it’s started. Law 9.1 is clear, ball should be considered out of play and a restart with a dropped ball to Man City.
Not only - is she unfortunately incorrect in law on this one, she’s also then exacerbated it by hitting the advantage signal.

4th official on the game is the FA’s national refereeing manager as well….
You are calling this an error in law based on a subjective matter and your opinion.
It's like saying not cautioning for a tackled is incorrect in law because in your opinion it was reckless.

It's easy in hindsight to say this started a promising attack as it eventually lead to a goal. Promising attack only started a few seconds later. But without hindsight, if immediately after the ball went to the city player, in her own half, she was fouled and play was stopped, would anyone caution for SPA? I would not.

Another option is when promising attack started after a few seconds, the ref blow and bring play back, that would be wrong in law but better game management. But this is with the benefit of hindsight.
 
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I’m expecting this Law to get tweaked. The subjectivity on promising attack creates a bad choice for the R when hit. I’m geo blocked on the video, but as described it sounds like the R was 100% right on letter of the Law, but it just doesn’t feel right, as the expectation grows with time that it will stop when it hits the R. I think most of us are going to err on the side of stopping play.
 
I’m expecting this Law to get tweaked. The subjectivity on promising attack creates a bad choice for the R when hit. I’m geo blocked on the video, but as described it sounds like the R was 100% right on letter of the Law, but it just doesn’t feel right, as the expectation grows with time that it will stop when it hits the R. I think most of us are going to err on the side of stopping play.


6:40 in
 
That to me would be poorer than the actual playing on. Why!!!!????

I can only assume it's for communication purposes, so everyone knows that play is being 'played on'.

not sure any referee here would have alarm bells ringing telling them to stop play. Of course they would be ringing loud and clear ten seconds later, but you can't then go back and give a dropped ball after the goal has been scored.

I agree, this is just one of those things.
 
I can only assume it's for communication purposes, so everyone knows that play is being 'played on'.



I agree, this is just one of those things.

prob summing up if the ref refrained from unauthorised signals then we would not be guessing whats going on, but all be fully aware.

i cant make out in the clip what she is doing tbh, but if its not an advantage signal, then, its not one we see in the lotg book, thus leading to our guessing, and with it, a detriment to her communication.
 
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The issue I have is that the promising attack only starts after the ball is passed down the line and the arsenal defender dives in. Poor defending causes the promising attack imo.

The left back having control in their half isn't anything out of the ordinary.
It's initially a 2 on 1 overload on the left wing, until the other arsenal player gets back in, if she fouls the left back chasing back that's an spa for me, I think.
 
It’s a nailed on promising attack that it’s started. Law 9.1 is clear, ball should be considered out of play and a restart with a dropped ball to Man City.
Not only - is she unfortunately incorrect in law on this one, she’s also then exacerbated it by hitting the advantage signal.

4th official on the game is the FA’s national refereeing manager as well….
I thought the signal was "its gone to your player" to the player who played the ball
 
I think it is very difficult to say this created a promising attack. In their own half, sends the ball backwards, not sure any referee here would have alarm bells ringing telling them to stop play. Of course they would be ringing loud and clear ten seconds later, but you can't then go back and give a dropped ball after the goal has been scored. I don't think I'd be stopping this at the time, but I then probably wish I had after the goal was scored. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Don’t think it’s hard to say at all.

intended pass is going into the middle of the park, into a player that is being rapidly closed down by a defender and the Man City player is not heading directly towards goal.

After the deflection from the referee, it’s gone to a player who has clear space to drive down the left wing to create an attack.

Add to that, the reason the left back has the ball in so much space is because the Arsenal midfielder has stepped in to close down the intended recipient.

As a team of 4, using comms in the top division of the womens game, even if the referee has not seen all of this, the 4th official and the nearest AR should have done and been screaming into her ear to give a drop ball.
 
My first reaction on seeing this was to feel sympathy for the referee. I'm sure we've all had that sinking feeling !

There was a thread that strayed onto this subject a few weeks back. My view then and now is that ball hitting referee is one where it's best to err on the side of a safe decision. Players expect the game to stop, so I am stopping it unless I can see a clear reason to carry on, rather than starting from the opposite assumption.

That doesn't mean never playing on by any means, but It does mean a big deflection going to a top class player with 30 yards space in front of her is not going to meet my play on threshold.
 
Don’t think it’s hard to say at all.

intended pass is going into the middle of the park, into a player that is being rapidly closed down by a defender and the Man City player is not heading directly towards goal.

After the deflection from the referee, it’s gone to a player who has clear space to drive down the left wing to create an attack.

Add to that, the reason the left back has the ball in so much space is because the Arsenal midfielder has stepped in to close down the intended recipient.

As a team of 4, using comms in the top division of the womens game, even if the referee has not seen all of this, the 4th official and the nearest AR should have done and been screaming into her ear to give a drop ball.

is that really a 'promising' attack though?

i don't think so, it's a normal attack one you'll see countless times a game
 
Don’t think it’s hard to say at all.

intended pass is going into the middle of the park, into a player that is being rapidly closed down by a defender and the Man City player is not heading directly towards goal.

After the deflection from the referee, it’s gone to a player who has clear space to drive down the left wing to create an attack.

Add to that, the reason the left back has the ball in so much space is because the Arsenal midfielder has stepped in to close down the intended recipient.

As a team of 4, using comms in the top division of the womens game, even if the referee has not seen all of this, the 4th official and the nearest AR should have done and been screaming into her ear to give a drop ball.
Justy, I think you make a convincing argument for why the situation was better for Man City after the deflection than before .. think we'd all agree with that. However, in law, that's irrelevant.

Given that the ball didn't change possession, the ONLY thing we need to consider is whether the ball hitting the referee started a promising attack. At the point it hits her, I think you could make that argument either way and I'd be amazed if the evaluation system used in the WSL classes her decision as an error.

With hindsight, sure we all stop the play. But at the time, with the ball in the defensive half and a desire to keep the game flowing, a totally understandable and defensible decision. I was AR on a WSL game yesterday and if I'd have seen Abi immediately decide to continue (as evidenced by her subtle hand signal) there'd have been no screaming down the comms from me :)
 
Justy, I think you make a convincing argument for why the situation was better for Man City after the deflection than before .. think we'd all agree with that. However, in law, that's irrelevant.

Given that the ball didn't change possession, the ONLY thing we need to consider is whether the ball hitting the referee started a promising attack. At the point it hits her, I think you could make that argument either way and I'd be amazed if the evaluation system used in the WSL classes her decision as an error.

With hindsight, sure we all stop the play. But at the time, with the ball in the defensive half and a desire to keep the game flowing, a totally understandable and defensible decision. I was AR on a WSL game yesterday and if I'd have seen Abi immediately decide to continue (as evidenced by her subtle hand signal) there'd have been no screaming down the comms from me :)
I’m not making an argument for gaining an advantage solely here. This is the position of the FOP just after the Man City player has received the ball. She has significant space in front of her down the left flank to stride into.
For me, this is a very definition of a ‘promising attack’ I’m with @JamesL here, she gets fouled in this position, you’re cautioning the defender for SPA without a second thought.
 

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I’m not making an argument for gaining an advantage solely here. This is the position of the FOP just after the Man City player has received the ball. She has significant space in front of her down the left flank to stride into.
For me, this is a very definition of a ‘promising attack’ I’m with @JamesL here, she gets fouled in this position, you’re cautioning the defender for SPA without a second thought.
Everything about the arsenal players reaction says this is a promising attack. The effort put in to get back into position says she recognises the danger to her side.
If she fouls, I've no doubt in my mind the only reason she does so is to SPA.

Top that off with less than 10 seconds and 2 passes later the ball is in the net I am hard pressed to call it much else than a promising attack.

That said, there is nothing in lotg that says what a promising attack is so it's very much open to interpretation.
 
Great thread.
It’s got me thinking what I would do as an AR in this situation.

Now thats a whole different question and with it the usual pantomine, do we have comms, buzzers, are we intimidated by the status of the ref or are we confident we simply must get involved.

on yesterdays clip, regardless of all the above, for me, thats entirely a referee call , she can make or break her own game based on her own here, she knows where she is on the pitch, she knows the ball has hit her, she knows where the ball has gone, I would really be leaving that one to the referee.
 
I’m not making an argument for gaining an advantage solely here. This is the position of the FOP just after the Man City player has received the ball. She has significant space in front of her down the left flank to stride into.
For me, this is a very definition of a ‘promising attack’ I’m with @JamesL here, she gets fouled in this position, you’re cautioning the defender for SPA without a second thought.
As I said in my last post, I believe you could argue it either way as to whether this was (initially) a promising attack. What really made it exceptionally promising was the subsequent rash sliding tackle by the Arsenal defender.

Whilst I agree that the City player has clear ground ahead of her, I'm certainly not buying that makes it the 'very definition of a promising attack'. She collected the ball 10m in her own half and there were 7 Arsenal players goalside of her at that moment.
 
As I said in my last post, I believe you could argue it either way as to whether this was (initially) a promising attack. What really made it exceptionally promising was the subsequent rash sliding tackle by the Arsenal defender.

Whilst I agree that the City player has clear ground ahead of her, I'm certainly not buying that makes it the 'very definition of a promising attack'. She collected the ball 10m in her own half and there were 7 Arsenal players goalside of her at that moment.
This is where the wording and absence of a definition for both what is a promising attack and how quickly one must determine the promising-ness of the attack causes a problem.
Was a promising attack started? In hindsight the only answer can be yes, it resulted in a goal. Attacks don't come more promising than that.
The closest we get to a definition is advantage which is a "few seconds". If it was a foul we wouldn't bring that back, (you'd be chasing the strikers a a la Mike Dean) so you could flip that and say few seconds, it's now a promising attack, take it back.
In reality, at any point, up until the game restarts the referee can take that back to the dropped ball having realised a promising attack was started.
Or one could simply say that 1 second snapshot where the promising-ness isn't exactly apparent is enough to not award the dropped ball.

In the absence of any real definitive direction from the law book consensus will not be achieved here as the way I look it, as written all of the above (and maybe more) are possible outcomes.

What does football expect? My guess is most of football expects a dropped ball, as that is what we have been doing with our safe refereeing tactics 😊
 
Beautifully summarised @JamesL :) . Some decisions are genuinely 'in the opinion of the referee' and therefore no matter how long we debate it will be tough / impossible to reach a consensus.
 
Suppose simple way of looking at is, fairness. Perceived or otherwise

the old way, of playing on when the ball hit the ref, resulted in an unfairness

the other team then unfairly got the ball

the ref unfairly, could be the last touch before a goal.

We in the past just wrote them off, as, one of those things.


now to yesterday, with the law change, we have already establlished the removal of, just one of those things.

So, give the drop ball yesterday, we have no unfairness, perceived or otherwise, and also we remove the, " just one of those things"
 
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