I’m 99/1 it’s pants
Mainz v Freiburg. Another VAR thread
- Thread starter JamesL
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Ciley Myrus
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Am watching Schalke v Frankfurt and ref (var?) missed a sfp red after ten mins
I know what I would rather see it used for , a maybe handball or a horrible lunge into the ankle!
I know what I would rather see it used for , a maybe handball or a horrible lunge into the ankle!
Weird, they used it at 80 minutes to send Fernandes off haven't they?
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Dont know, turned over to watch Real!
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
So what's your point? Don't tell me you're trying to argue that a defender is allowed to run in front of an attacker and stick their arms wide out to block a shot?"The position of the hand does not necessarily mean there was an offence"
See, by those arguments, handball simply doesn't exist. Although if you don't think this is a foul then it would seem that handball probably doesn't exist for you.....
Most fouls don't make sense if you think 'why did he do that'. Most handling fouls certainly don't.
So we infer 'deliberate' from actions. You've got a player who has clearly taken a stance that is intended to block a shot - I think we can all agree on that, yes? And as part of that stance he sticks his arm out at 90 degrees from his body, yes? That action is completely consistent with the rest of his action to block the kick.
Thus we infer from actions. The arm is part of his stance to block the kick.
Furthermore, we also need to consider movement of arm - ball to hand vs hand to ball. The player didn't stick his arm out until as the shot was being taken.
That's not the actions of somebody who isn't trying to block the shot with their arm.
Also, your comment about 'won't get 100% of referees to agree' is simply irrelevant, when you also won't get 100% of referees to agree that keeper handling outside the PA isn't an IFK, or calling mine isn't an IFK, or playing the ball from the ground isn't an IFK, or keeper handling outside the PA isn't an automatic PK, etc etc....
Peter Grove
RefChat Addict
"That UEFA video" was actually a USSF seminar given to less than 50 USSF referees. Although the presenter claims towards the end of the clip that this is how FIFA wants handling offences to be judged, I personally have not come across any other video, instruction or circular that supports this claim (although I realise that others say they have seen or heard similar sentiments expressed). I also believe that the video contains several things that are contrary to what the Laws of the Game say in regards to how deliberate handling should be judged, in terms of hand to ball/ball to hand, unexpected ball, arm position etc.
What I would say is that if this is indeed how FIFA wants all referees to judge handling offences (or even the IFAB who are supposed to be the ones in charge of everything to do with the Laws these days) then having it mentioned by a presenter it in a closed-door session to a small number of referees in only one country in the world seems like a strange way to go about it. If this is to be the official position then surely it should be communicated to every association in the world via proper channels.
one
RefChat Addict
On the definition of deliberate which is not the same on the everyday use than it is in lotg; i have used a case before but here it is again. A long high ball is coming to the penalty area. A centre back is on the penalty spot with no attackers within 20 yards (no pressure). The CB tries to chest the ball with his arms wide open (like an aeroplane). He misreads the flight of the ball and the ball hits him right on the elbow. 99.9% of referees would give that as a handball. 99.9% of players would not argue about the decision. Even though the CB did not intend for it to end up the way it did, under the lotg definition of handball its considered deliberate.
"why on earth would he deliberately handle that" is a completely irrelevant questions but if you really want an answer for the OP, instinct to stop a ball which was being kicked towards goal.
These two screenshots leave no doubt for me (the actual video clip looks even worse for me):
For those who argue for natural position, the natural position must be looked at within the context of intended movement type (e.g. running, jumping...). My understanding of natural forward movement is that left arm moves forward with the right foot (and right arm with left foot) UNLESS one is intending to expand their body and make it as big as possible. The movement of the offender here would have only been considered natural if he was a goalkeeper trying to make himself bigger not a field player. "trying to avoid contact with the ball" is also a consideration that was certainly not on the offender's mind.
"why on earth would he deliberately handle that" is a completely irrelevant questions but if you really want an answer for the OP, instinct to stop a ball which was being kicked towards goal.
These two screenshots leave no doubt for me (the actual video clip looks even worse for me):
For those who argue for natural position, the natural position must be looked at within the context of intended movement type (e.g. running, jumping...). My understanding of natural forward movement is that left arm moves forward with the right foot (and right arm with left foot) UNLESS one is intending to expand their body and make it as big as possible. The movement of the offender here would have only been considered natural if he was a goalkeeper trying to make himself bigger not a field player. "trying to avoid contact with the ball" is also a consideration that was certainly not on the offender's mind.
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santa sangria
RefChat Addict
Thanks for that. I couldn't remember the source. I agree about "that USSF video". A rumour helps no one.
On this incident the 2nd image shows all four players have their arms out. This does not help the case for the prosecution!
one
RefChat Addict
Haha. In response to the defence you are Honour, the prosecution made their case of natural arm position in the premise of the movement type. Two players are using their arm to balance while tussling for space, that makes sense. Defender no. 9 arm is intentionally extended and shouldn't be there (possible unsuccessful attempt to pull back the striker evident from the video clip). Had it hit the ball, it would have been a deliberate handball. I don't see the only other player (18) having his arm extended. There is another defender not in the image attempting to block the ball who's left arm is extended but at the same time as his right foot. That would be the natural position for the movement type as described earlier.
All this 'not in a natural position' claptrap grinds my gears, where are arms supposed to be? We use them for balance, quite naturally. There are cases of deliberate handball but when a ball is blasted at you I doubt a deliberate handball can take place (very easily)!
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
In the opinion of... we could go on all day... looks to me like the guy has his hand out to balance so he doesn't fall over.
What do I learn here?
This VAR process was handled badly. The VAR process overall is unsatisfactory. The handball guidance in the LotG is not satisfactory. This is all more oxygen for railing against officials on and off the field and doesn't help us or the game.
I hope the IFAB and those responsible for implementing VAR get it in better shape before the showpiece tournament.
What do I learn here?
This VAR process was handled badly. The VAR process overall is unsatisfactory. The handball guidance in the LotG is not satisfactory. This is all more oxygen for railing against officials on and off the field and doesn't help us or the game.
I hope the IFAB and those responsible for implementing VAR get it in better shape before the showpiece tournament.
The instructor in that video is a FIFA instructor, using the latest FIFA Futuro materials, which, indeed, have "answers" that match what he presented in the video.
Now, the latest UEFA RAP (refereeing assistance program) has some similar videos on their latest edition (2017:2) which don't quite match the latest FIFA Futuro "answers"/guidance, so I do expect that you'll see some minor changes from both over the next year as they work to come in line with each other a bit more.
Peter Grove
RefChat Addict
For me, when it comes to arm position, we should follow the Laws of the Game. Which tell us that it may or may not be probative. In other words, you can't rely on arm position alone to tell you if the handling was deliberate or not, it's just one of the factors you should take into consideration. The primary consideration is still whether this was the deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm and the 'factors to consider' are only there to help us in arriving at a conclusion.
one
RefChat Addict
@Peter Grove I think we are all doing as you said. The problem is after looking at the consideration we arrive at a different primary conclusion. We all look at all the considerations (primary or secondary) differently. Or interpret the meaning of some words differently.
As pointed out it can be looked at as one of the beauties of football that causes passionate debates and keeps everyone interested. Or some people look at it as a shortcoming for not having clear cut outcomes.
As pointed out it can be looked at as one of the beauties of football that causes passionate debates and keeps everyone interested. Or some people look at it as a shortcoming for not having clear cut outcomes.
I’m just testing this new thing that we don’t use arms for balance out! So far I’ve tried 4-5 actions and on every occasion my arms move quite naturally away from my body, can someone tell me what I’m doing wrong?
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
All the science and analysis and consideration for the trajectory of all things spherical is good on paper, and complex
However the over riding factor is simple. Do you as referee deem what you see to be deliberate. If do, penalise it. If not, and I would suggest without inside knowledge of Opta, nine times out of ten, I would consider handball not to bd deliberate. I mean, who at the top level of football, on 100k per week, having trained pro for 10 years, really gives away a pk to their opponents by putting their hand onto the ball?
Defender is aware a cross is going to come in, and thinks, hey, am well aware if I use my hand to block this I will conceed a pen but fcuk it, I will do it anyway?
However the over riding factor is simple. Do you as referee deem what you see to be deliberate. If do, penalise it. If not, and I would suggest without inside knowledge of Opta, nine times out of ten, I would consider handball not to bd deliberate. I mean, who at the top level of football, on 100k per week, having trained pro for 10 years, really gives away a pk to their opponents by putting their hand onto the ball?
Defender is aware a cross is going to come in, and thinks, hey, am well aware if I use my hand to block this I will conceed a pen but fcuk it, I will do it anyway?
Miley, stop talking so much sense, we'll be thinking there is an imposter posting on your behalf!!
