A&H

Mainz v Freiburg. Another VAR thread

We could (and probably would, if we started) debate the handball all day, which means it can't be a clear & obvious mistake by the on field officials. When is a goal not a goal? When there's a VAR in front of a monitor. Bring back the occasional bad decision IMHO
 
The Referee Store
one said:
This concept is actually provisioned in the handbook and called "delay the restart". In this case the name is misleading but the concept is the all the same at half/full time. Referee should have known VAR may need time to check the incident and/or VAR should have alerted him. I am afraid this was an error by officials not the system.

View attachment 1883

Also in my VAR process map
https://www.refchat.co.uk/threads/var-process-map.11389/#post-109930
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Just because its in the guidelines, doesn't make it a good thing!

So now in addition, to not being able to celebrate a goal, we can't clap/boo/go to the loo/get a drink at the half time whistle. Also applying this logic, after ref has blown for full time, he and the players should hang around for a bit, while Mr VAR has a look at the last few minutes of a match.
There was an article in Racing Post recently, which stated he expected VAR to be dropped, or at least 'reviewed' once a major fall out happens at World Cup and with incidents like this popping up, you have to agree with him!
 
PinnerPaul said:
Just because its in the guidelines, doesn't make it a good thing!

So now in addition, to not being able to celebrate a goal, we can't clap/boo/go to the loo/get a drink at the half time whistle. Also applying this logic, after ref has blown for full time, he and the players should hang around for a bit, while Mr VAR has a look at the last few minutes of a match.
There was an article in Racing Post recently, which stated he expected VAR to be dropped, or at least 'reviewed' once a major fall out happens at World Cup and with incidents like this popping up, you have to agree with him!
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Spot on PP, Just see a situation where the captain is just about to lift the cup and the ref gets a buzz in his ear!!
It reminds me of the mess in the South American league where a player re-took a pen in a penalty shootout that he had forefitted because of the stopped run (if my memory is right)! team had celebrated stopping up, a team had flown home and they asked for the game to be replayed the following day, one team turned up, one didn't and they reversed the result. Not VAR but you get my point!! Where does it stop!!!
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
Dismal failure of the process here.
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PinnerPaul said:
Just because its in the guidelines, doesn't make it a good thing!

So now in addition, to not being able to celebrate a goal, we can't clap/boo/go to the loo/get a drink at the half time whistle. Also applying this logic, after ref has blown for full time, he and the players should hang around for a bit, while Mr VAR has a look at the last few minutes of a match.
There was an article in Racing Post recently, which stated he expected VAR to be dropped, or at least 'reviewed' once a major fall out happens at World Cup and with incidents like this popping up, you have to agree with him!
Click to expand...

I make an analogy to the game of football itself. Its a beautiful game. But there are many behaviours that are making it ugly and unpleasant. Simulation (which is missed by the referee) to get a penalty is a good example. You can't blame football for the injustice done because the referee misapplied the laws. Its the referee to blame here not football or its laws. Similarly you cant blame the VAR system because the referee didn't apply it correctly.

I am not entirely convinced VAR is a good thing yet. But I am saying you can't use this example to prove its not good. You can however use it to prove we are not ready for it yet and officials need more training to apply it correctly as this is all it was, a misapplication of the VAR protocol.

The flip side, had the protocol been followed correctly,
- the VAR told the referee he was checking for handball early,
- referee did not blow half time and therefore everyone stayed on the field,
- VAR told referee its a deliberate handball (no need for referee to check on the screen for himself, trust your VAR)
- Penalty taken and
- Half time blown

We (at least some of us) will be saying what a good system it is and how it helped getting the correct decision without much fuss.
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
Most VAR problems come from this 'always working in the background' approach. Better to have it at ref request only.
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I disagree. Almost all (in fact i can't think of any that isn't) VAR problems are one of these two

- Misapplication of the protocol
- Lack of technology to decisively support a decision one way or other.

Fix those two issues (by more training/use in trials and investing in dedicated technology as with GLT) and it will be a must have system.
 
Football will never be perfect, mistakes happen, even with VAR, this new system, trial, call it what you will, is dragging the heart and emotion of players and supporters out of the game. Gone is the raw emotion of a goal or anything that we love about the game. We now have clueless supporters and players none the wiser when refs and VARs chew over something that no one has seen clearly and never will and they all sit there baffled when retro decisions are cobbled together. Yes, football isn’t perfect as it was but if this in supposed to be progress then god rest our souls.. Scrap it now! This VAR method is alsolute garbage.
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Football will never be perfect, mistakes happen, even with VAR, this new system, trial, call it what you will, is dragging the heart and emotion of players and supporters out of the game. Gone is the raw emotion of a goal or anything that we love about the game. We now have clueless supporters and players none the wiser when refs and VARs chew over something that no one has seen clearly and never will and they all sit there baffled when retro decisions are cobbled together. Yes, football isn’t perfect as it was but if this in supposed to be progress then god rest our souls.. Scrap it now! This VAR method is alsolute garbage.
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Can we set up one of those internet petitions on YouGov and have the VAR matter debated in the lower house?
 
one said:
I make an analogy to the game of football itself. Its a beautiful game. But there are many behaviours that are making it ugly and unpleasant. Simulation (which is missed by the referee) to get a penalty is a good example. You can't blame football for the injustice done because the referee misapplied the laws. Its the referee to blame here not football or its laws. Similarly you cant blame the VAR system because the referee didn't apply it correctly.

I am not entirely convinced VAR is a good thing yet. But I am saying you can't use this example to prove its not good. You can however use it to prove we are not ready for it yet and officials need more training to apply it correctly as this is all it was, a misapplication of the VAR protocol.

The flip side, had the protocol been followed correctly,
- the VAR told the referee he was checking for handball early,
- referee did not blow half time and therefore everyone stayed on the field,
- VAR told referee its a deliberate handball (no need for referee to check on the screen for himself, trust your VAR)
- Penalty taken and
- Half time blown

We (at least some of us) will be saying what a good system it is and how it helped getting the correct decision without much fuss.
Click to expand...




I hear ya. You overlook one main factor though in your good example of simulation. The referee is not to blame. I find it easy to symphasise with a referee who has been cheated. The person(s) to blame, are the players.
Had cheating not become such an art, with huge sums of money at stake, then things like retrospective action for diving nevermind VAR would barely be needed, getting offsides and handballs right was just as important 50 years ago, whats changed is the prize money at stake for the winners.
Football, and its officiating, is not an exact science. Not from the playing point of view ( pens will be missed, keepers will fumble shots), just as referees will be undecided as to a handball. If VAR is used to correct mistakes then we should retake every pk until its scored, as surely to miss a pk is an error in the game too
As we know only too well from this forum, my handball is another persons accidental handball and so on.
The incident in question, for me, is not deliberate handball. So as referee, if i trust in my var and give the pk, its pointless me turning up at all.
 
How is it not deliberate handball when his arm was out 90 degrees from his body with a shot coming in???
He stood in front of the kicker, in a position to block the shot, and then stuck his arm out from his body to block the path. It's about as deliberate as it gets, short of actually catching the thing.
Heck, slowing it down he doesn't stick his arm out until as the ball is being kicked.
 
Ciley Myrus said:
I hear ya. You overlook one main factor though in your good example of simulation. The referee is not to blame. I find it easy to symphasise with a referee who has been cheated. The person(s) to blame, are the players.
Had cheating not become such an art, with huge sums of money at stake, then things like retrospective action for diving nevermind VAR would barely be needed, getting offsides and handballs right was just as important 50 years ago, whats changed is the prize money at stake for the winners.
Football, and its officiating, is not an exact science. Not from the playing point of view ( pens will be missed, keepers will fumble shots), just as referees will be undecided as to a handball. If VAR is used to correct mistakes then we should retake every pk until its scored, as surely to miss a pk is an error in the game too
As we know only too well from this forum, my handball is another persons accidental handball and so on.
The incident in question, for me, is not deliberate handball. So as referee, if i trust in my var and give the pk, its pointless me turning up at all.
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The point is, you can't blame it on football or its laws as it seems to be happening on the concept when it comes to VAR. If you want to blame it on the cheating player, so be it.

VAR is used to correct only clear mistakes on only KMIs, which IMO is a very good compromise between its intrusiveness and commercial ramifications of getting referee mistakes in football provided its protocol is applied correctly.
 
personally I think the VAR needs to get past this stupid idea of 'contact means it can't be simulation'.
We've had a few disgusting scenarios in the HAL of a player deliberately doing a minor slap or some such to an opponent - not much contact, but a clear red card given zero tolerance for that sort of thing, only to have the opponent take a clear dive.

We need to be treating those dives as dives, while still taking action against the initiating player. And VAR should be helping us to do that.
 
You Are The Ref said:
It's the first time two of our coaches have had a difference on opinion and so have decided to open it up to a poll!

http://you-are-the-ref.com/var-drama-during-mainz-v-freiburg-was-it-a-penalty/
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Mark Halsey and Paul Rejer are talking apples and oranges so its not one Vs other or not necessarily a difference in opinion. Paul Rejer is arguing about if it was a deliberate handball or not. Mark Halsey is mostly arguing it was not a clear and obvious error (the word obvious is not used in VAR handbook).

I feel Mark's reasoning for handball is less credible. Since when attacking team being disadvantages is a criteria for handball?


Anyway I voted and the poll result is not displayed. I feel cheated. :mad::mad: :p
 
santa sangria said:
"The position of the hand does not necessarily mean there was an offence"
;)
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Yes but he has actually moved his arm into the path of the ball. This isnt a ball to hand scenario for me this is a deliberate act of handling the ball... ;)
 
There's a picture where every defensive player has their hand in a similar position. Completely natural position for that type of movement.
 
cwyeary said:
If a forum of referees can't agree that this was without a doubt a handling offense, then no wonder we have so many problems.
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Am not giving that. Of course as has been discussed to death, handball is 2 things

1, in the opinion of the referee. Opinion. You wont get 100/100 refs to agree 100% on anything that is opinion
2. deliberate act by the player. No, we cant get inside his mind to find out if it was deliberate, so my next best thing is to put myself in his shoes and think "would I intentionally handle that ball", or "why on earth would he deliberately handle that"

I cant justify giving that as deliberate. therefore, with regards the LOTG and handball, as it stands, I cant penalise that.
 
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Does the hand ball decision need to be black or white. If one was 60/40 or 70/30, that would probably be about right. Otherwise, as refs we're no different from players or managers who are always 100% right. VAR has to be reserved for questions of fact, otherwise it will only inflame controversy. In fact, VAR should be banished to room 101 cos i'm 80/20 convinced its pants
 
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