Liverpool v City - Klopp sending off

[Kes]

I thought it was a shambles.

Irrespective of whether or not PGMOL officials have been told not to penalise "soft" fouls, the 2 he ignored (both on Salah) were ridiculously obvious in my opinion. The second one on Salah near the touchline in full view of the AR had me scratching my head I must say. ...

 

[one]

Liverpool players didn’t argue the Fabinho foul at all, the only argument was that on Allison. Fouls are subjective and throughout the game AT and his AR’s (one which caused the Klopp incident) were consistently allowing the soft ones so quite clearly this was something they’d discussed prior to KO and Pep confirmed AT had said exactly the same to both managers before the game, so why become involved in one isolated incident? I’m not suggesting it wasn’t a foul, but if we/players/managers want consistency then this shouldn’t have been reviewed based on how AT was allowing the game to progress

Agree, the foul on Fabinho wasn't clear and obvious but the one on Alison was. The goal was correctly disallowed but with the wrong process. But VAR is used wrongly in most cases in EPL anyway. At least this time they got the outcome right.

For what it's worth, after seeing a few clear fouls let flow early in the game I did guess a goal or two will be disallowed for fouls in the lead up. And there it was.

 

[one]

so quite clearly this was something they’d discussed prior to KO and Pep confirmed AT had said exactly the same to both managers before the game

I'd be very surprised if this is the the case. We teach 1st year referees not to back themselves into a corner by telling plaers/managers I'd do this or I'd do that. The 'top' EPL referee is not expected to make a rookie mistake like this. He did actually give a couple of soft ones I did not expect.

Another mistake would be referee a game any different to how you would normally referee because it's a big game. It would just throw you of your routine.

Let's just say he had a bad day at the office.

 

[Darren83]

Klopp was sent off for his actions and rightfully so. Regardless if it was or wasnt a foul his behaviour is unacceptable, however the elite level of football is a million miles from grassroots football. The fact he was sent off should be enough to show that this behaviour is not acceptable and people at grassroots level are responsible for their own actions not Jurgen Klopp

 

[RefIADad]

This was incredibly unhelpful, BBC did similar as well, not calling it out for what it is.

No way he gets 6 games. 3 will be max

Let’s call it what it is - Klopp will get the standard one game ban for a coach send off. The commentary hasn’t been helpful. Pretty much condones this level of behavior because “the ref made a bad call”. We wonder why referee abuse happens, and here is Exhibit A.

 

[cwyeary]

The laws give the ref the tools to deal with it. I wish PGMOL would let the refs use these tools and set a good standard. Leave the technical area to dissent? Red. Leave the technical area to confront an opponent? Red. Delay the restart of the opponent? Red.

The laws are clear and refs need to use them.

 

[bester]

On a more mundane note, did anyone see the restart of play?
Unusual (by EPL standards) that he stopped play to flick a manager so it would be interesting to know what happened next.

Restart was incorrect. "he restarted with IDFK about 10-yards in from the touchline, and 30 yards forward from where the offence was. Free kick position was roughly where the ball was when he stopped play."

 

[PinnerPaul]

Inconsistent or not, that overrule for the Foden goal was not in keeping with the game. In isolation I believe that it was probably a foul but whenever I’ve been an AR, referees in the pre match always say to me give fouls based on how they are refereeing the game.

AT was letting these sorts of things go throughout the match and then when the goal happens, it gets analysed within an inch of its life and AT creates his own inconsistency under pressure of VAR. VAR should be basing their recommended reviews on the tolerance level of the referee

PGMOL said it would have been disallowed for the challenge on the Liverpool GK anyway - which I agree with, for what's it worth!

 

[Tim Punter]

Surprised Guardiola didn’t get 2 yellows either. One for being on the pitch remonstration about a foul, and then arguing in AT’s face when going to VAR. PL refs need to enforce dissent, which will then make our life easier at grassroots when we do enforce it.

 

[RustyRef]

It's a difficult one. Almost everyone wants refereeing to be done like that, letting the game flow and having minimal intervention, probably the only people that don't are referees themselves. Of course, participants and supporters won't like it when decisions, or lack of decisions, go against them, but they don't when referees blow for everything either. We then have to think what referees are there for, the game doesn't exist for referees rather referees exist to support the game. For that reason I can't see this new approach to refereeing going away, and there can't be any doubt that it is making the game more entertaining.

I thought he did well on the whole, yes he missed the foul on Salah, although he did also have a grab at Bernardo so I would wonder if he looked at it as 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other. And the disallowed goal is why we need the VAR audio releasing or audible, I suspect he will have been asked something like "did you see the shirt pull by Haaland on Fabinho?" If he replies that he did but didn't deem it to have had a significant impact VAR would do nothing, whereas if he replied with "what shirt pull" there is a clear mandate for VAR to recommend a review. In any case it is somewhat irrelevant as they have subsequently said it would have been disallowed for the foul on Allison. Perhaps there would have been much less controversy if they checked the possible offence that occurred immediately before the goal was scored, especially as that was factual as opposed to opinion based, after all if Allison's hand was touching the ball when it was played it can only be a free kick.

As for Klopp, he has done this before, I remember images of him towering over a 4th official in a UEFA game, screaming in his face, and I think he got quite a long ban for that. I don't think that will happen here, if he accepts the charge he will just get the standard one game touchline ban. What would send a very clear message here is a lengthy ban, including at least a couple of games being a full stadium ban, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Josh the referee]

Just a question, was Klopp allowed to come back after Full Time onto the pitch like he did? He approached AT and his assistants to shake hands as they were about to walk down the tunnel

 

[Paul_10]

Pundits in general do seem to be praising Anthony Taylor on his performance so it is somewhat surprising seeing critisom from some quarters on here.

I guess you really can't please everyone. Sadly I did not see the game but apart from the disallowed goal, the game seemed to be largely controversial free. Red card for Klopp was obviously the right decision, there is just no excuse to shout like that in someone's ear even if the linesman did make a mistake, will the FA come down hard on him? I doubt it.

 

[RustyRef]

Just to add, Klopp has long had history for this. This was from back when he was at Dortmund, pretty sure UEFA suspended him for it.

 

[bloovee]

Exactly - but as ARF points out, naughty words aren't the same as discriminatory language against a protected class. It will go through as a "standard" OFFINABUS and get 3 games. And discussing what ban he "should" get sounds more like fan talk than referee talk.

If we do want to discuss the game as referees, I think AT had a pretty poor game. He tried to be tough at the start and then loosened up almost immediately, which led to some very inconsistent decisions across the first 20 minutes. Consistently failed to give the "fall over and grab the opponents shirt" foul. Highlighted by VAR having to bail him out on the disallowed City goal and the foul that wasn't given that led to Klopp losing it, but it also happened a good few other times - he just seemed to decide he wasn't giving that foul today.

There was also an incident around 15 minutes in that had me incensed - Foden goes down on City's left, stays down, City benches are screaming for the ball to be put out. Liverpool don't, but their attack breaks down and the ball breaks back towards LFC goal (note City don't put the ball out either!) And Foden is suddenly up and sprinting, gets a good few touches that play a part in City getting a shot on target.

I'm just about OK to accept that some gamesmanship is part of the sport, but I think faking injuries to try and stop a counter attack is appalling behaviour. Liverpool didn't put the ball out presumably in part because their analysts had told them that City do this - but it's only going to be so long before we have a "boy who cries wolf" situation. Had he actually needed urgent attention, he wouldn't have got it, and that's a serious problem caused by teams faking injuries and gaining reputations for doing so. Authorities need to sort this out before someone gets seriously hurt - either by punishing faking, or taking that medical decision out of the hands of untrained referees and players.

Biased cobblers. The idea that City players "fake injury" rather than get back to defend is ridiculous, and the fantasy that "City do this" is just daft.

 

[RefIADad]

Pundits in general do seem to be praising Anthony Taylor on his performance so it is somewhat surprising seeing critisom from some quarters on here.

I guess you really can't please everyone. Sadly I did not see the game but apart from the disallowed goal, the game seemed to be largely controversial free. Red card for Klopp was obviously the right decision, there is just no excuse to shout like that in someone's ear even if the linesman did make a mistake, will the FA come down hard on him? I doubt it.

What I’m seeing is former players and a former onfield PGMOL referee are saying Taylor did well. Players on the whole generally like fewer calls and fouls. I don’t think we will ever see Mike Dean criticize a colleague.

I get many like a game where it is one play from descending into chaos, but I’d prefer to see a game called tighter. I want to see soccer, not a near-MMA fight. But the fans usually like meaty tackles and emotions boiling. “Are you not entertained??!!”

 

[GraemeS]

Biased cobblers. The idea that City players "fake injury" rather than get back to defend is ridiculous, and the fantasy that "City do this" is just daft.

It literally happened, so....not quite sure how it can be cobblers, biased or otherwise.

Foden was down "injured", City as a whole were shouting at Liverpool to put the ball out, including Pep and an assistant both right on the edge of the TA.
Liverpool didn't, pushed forward, lost the ball and then as play progressed under City's counter-attack left-to-right, we suddenly see Foden sprinting right-to-left to get back onside, before playing a one-two and then sprinting forward to break the lines and help play the ball around Liverpool's PA with Haaland before it's laid back for a Gundogan shot from the edge of the area.

I doubt it will have made highlights because the shot was pretty tame, but if you can find a full match replay, it's around the 15 minute mark in the first half, maybe slightly before that. Feel free to check your facts before just assuming I'm lying because I've dared to criticise City

As for "City doing this" - well, I've seen Liverpool put the ball out for injured players before. Yet Foden goes down and it's very clear they (correctly!) collectively don't believe him and so choose to play on. Maybe 11 players managed to accurately diagnose a non-serious injury from 40+ yards away? Or maybe they'd been told to treat injured players with a pinch of salt in this game? It's only a guess of course, but my money's on the latter.

 

[Anubis]

intetestingly, the topic of stopping play to sanction a manager came up last week

i remember typing, could understand stopping play to issue a red

Surely this was NOT a case to stop play, City most certainly on attack then effectively being penalised through no doing of their own


the brief clips I saw, sadly the referee was a rabbit on the headlights.

Somehow one of the planets top referees was unable to identify real time not one, but two run of the mill fouls in the same five second passage of play, both retrospectively would have been awarded as freekicks on review

 

[bloovee]

It literally happened, so....not quite sure how it can be cobblers, biased or otherwise.

Foden was down "injured", City as a whole were shouting at Liverpool to put the ball out, including Pep and an assistant both right on the edge of the TA.
Liverpool didn't, pushed forward, lost the ball and then as play progressed under City's counter-attack left-to-right, we suddenly see Foden sprinting right-to-left to get back onside, before playing a one-two and then sprinting forward to break the lines and help play the ball around Liverpool's PA with Haaland before it's laid back for a Gundogan shot from the edge of the area.

I doubt it will have made highlights because the shot was pretty tame, but if you can find a full match replay, it's around the 15 minute mark in the first half, maybe slightly before that. Feel free to check your facts before just assuming I'm lying because I've dared to criticise City

As for "City doing this" - well, I've seen Liverpool put the ball out for injured players before. Yet Foden goes down and it's very clear they (correctly!) collectively don't believe him and so choose to play on. Maybe 11 players managed to accurately diagnose a non-serious injury from 40+ yards away? Or maybe they'd been told to treat injured players with a pinch of salt in this game? It's only a guess of course, but my money's on the latter.

So you didn't see when Foden got up? And you've made up the bit about what Liverpool players were told?

 

[GraemeS]

So you didn't see when Foden got up? And you've made up the bit about what Liverpool players were told?

I don't see the relevance of seeing Foden get up? Maybe he hopped up like everything was fine, maybe he made a show of getting up slowly and only then started sprinting. That's not the issue, it's the disconnect - he's down, Liverpool are being screamed at to stop the game up until the moment they lose the ball and then the next we see of him (obviously with no medical intervention because that would have been medics entering the field with no permission and without play stopping) is him up and sprinting to help a counter attack when possession has changed.

Either he's nowhere near as injured as him and the rest of his team and his management were acting like he was, or it actually was a horrific injury that he managed to grit his teeth and get through - not only for the immediate next attack, but also for the remainder of the game with no medical intervention other than whatever was done at half time. The former is boy who cried wolf, the latter is a medical miracle - I know which I feel is more likely.

And yes, the bit about LFC being told is a presumption, based on logically extrapolating from incomplete data. That's why in the original post you're getting wound up about, I used the word "presumably". Obviously I don't have access to Liverpool's pre-match briefings, but it's not unreasonable to contrast their behaviour in this match with their general behaviour around injuries and conclude that it seems likely they've been told to act differently here and to then wonder why that might be the case.

 

[deusex]

People are being very harsh on AT on here. I'd rather this style of refereeing than giving a foul every time a player goes down.
The shirt pull he missed for the disallowed goal would have been very hard to spot real time. The Liverpool player completely flops, no contact there was enough to put a grown man on the floor. But his shirt was pulled, so it is a foul.

His assistant has really let him down with the missed Salah foul, that is AR territory all day long.