Level 3/4 Pathway Choice
- Thread starter NE32
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Very interesting indeed...
I wonder what it will do to availability of games - or assistants at step 3/4.
I was wondering, and would be great if anyone knew...
I don't hate running the line, I'd rather do it than be 4th official, and if I don't ever progress as a referee I'm in no hurry to shut down the option to progress as AR... but....
If I did specialise... would I get more middles at step3/4 by doing so? Or will it mean more 4th mans as above?
That would probably make my decision for me.
I don't hate running the line, I'd rather do it than be 4th official, and if I don't ever progress as a referee I'm in no hurry to shut down the option to progress as AR... but....
If I did specialise... would I get more middles at step3/4 by doing so? Or will it mean more 4th mans as above?
That would probably make my decision for me.
I think there may end up being some regional variability but I think that specialising, at least currently, doesn't lead to a change in the number of appointments.
News of the day for me is I have specialised as a ref being in my 4th year I have had to choose and no chance of line promotion this year i am following my heart
Good point and main reason why this has not happened before now. I can only imagine the FA are confident in appropriate numbers being reached/maintained.
ChasObserverRefDeveloper
Regular Contributor
Full time ObserverI'm not sure what to do... on account of being brilliant at everything
ChasObserverRefDeveloper
Regular Contributor
Give me 3 months to come up with an answerChas, you've seen me ref and you've seen me line... what should I pick?
As a first season L4 I'm pleased they've offered the earlier opportunity to specialise. I have been thinking for a while about going SAR because I feel it is where I perform most consistently well, and gives the better opportunity for progression as an AR with operating on the dugout side more often. It would also be nice to never have to think about club marks again.
Dual role is made significantly less attractive by no longer offering promotion as both a referee and an AR automatically. Being promoted in the AR pathway as a dual official is going to be very difficult?
Dual role is made significantly less attractive by no longer offering promotion as both a referee and an AR automatically. Being promoted in the AR pathway as a dual official is going to be very difficult?
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I was thinking this thing, was planning on eventually specialising but always had the goal of really pushing to get L3 first so that I could theoretically being on the NL n/s and having more visibility.
Makes it difficult as you will need to be really lucky I think to get good scores on the line now as a 4 to get that next step unless they change the criteria.
Makes it difficult as you will need to be really lucky I think to get good scores on the line now as a 4 to get that next step unless they change the criteria.
The Referee observation scheme has fundamentally been broken by Mr Knight because the root cause of significant variance between observers scores is the absence of a par score (70.0). Observers arbitrarily classify 'above expected' such that some award that merit much more frequently than others. The opportunity to mark on any specific competency is naturally a function of the what happens in the game itself, such that a referee's score continues to reflect these two problems as much as it does the referee's performance. However, there's still a reasonable relationship between the referee's overall competency, performance and score, so clearly the referee significantly influences the outcome of the report despite the broken process. Why ALL referees are 'above expected' is beyond me as we all individually do things that are above and below the standard expected for the collective for our respective levels (which equates to a par score of 70.0, meaning a quiet game trends towards 70 and a difficult game could go either way).
Anyway, the above conclusions are similar for AR scores at Level 4, albeit the problem is much more pronounced. The marking of ARs at Level 4 has improved slightly this year on the basis that inaction by an AR is now being rewarded much more than it was previously. Knowing when to assist and when not to is now being recognized better, such that the feeling of 'needing to flag to score' has diminished
However, AR scores are still largely akin to playing bingo at L4, and it's for that reason my interest in specializing as an Assistant is less than it should be
Both marking schemes are flawed for the reasons stated, but it's much worse with L4 AR scores than it is for referee scores and I'd like my season outcome to have a meaningful correlation with competency rather than luck, hence I'm reluctant to entertain the idea of specialist AR
I've also lost interest with becoming an observer, because I can't invest my efforts into a scheme that I consider flawed to the extent that it is
Someone who understands statistics could concoct a much better scheme than a bunch of refs or ex-referees. This is coming from someone who has scored well on both roles this season, so it's not based on acrimony
Referees have also successfully and wrongfully downplayed the significance of club marks. The fundamental reason they're statistically relevant, is because we get scored on every game and the 'law of big numbers' always outtrumps a small dataset (observer scores) even when each individual datapoint in the larger set is less accurate datapoints from the smaller set
Anyway, the above conclusions are similar for AR scores at Level 4, albeit the problem is much more pronounced. The marking of ARs at Level 4 has improved slightly this year on the basis that inaction by an AR is now being rewarded much more than it was previously. Knowing when to assist and when not to is now being recognized better, such that the feeling of 'needing to flag to score' has diminished
However, AR scores are still largely akin to playing bingo at L4, and it's for that reason my interest in specializing as an Assistant is less than it should be
Both marking schemes are flawed for the reasons stated, but it's much worse with L4 AR scores than it is for referee scores and I'd like my season outcome to have a meaningful correlation with competency rather than luck, hence I'm reluctant to entertain the idea of specialist AR
I've also lost interest with becoming an observer, because I can't invest my efforts into a scheme that I consider flawed to the extent that it is
Someone who understands statistics could concoct a much better scheme than a bunch of refs or ex-referees. This is coming from someone who has scored well on both roles this season, so it's not based on acrimony
Referees have also successfully and wrongfully downplayed the significance of club marks. The fundamental reason they're statistically relevant, is because we get scored on every game and the 'law of big numbers' always outtrumps a small dataset (observer scores) even when each individual datapoint in the larger set is less accurate datapoints from the smaller set
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Whilst I understand the point you're making, I also think the club marking range is far too wild for it to bear any meaningful weight in promotion/reclassification decisions.
There are clubs I go to where I know no matter what happens, I'm pretty much guaranteed 80 as a minimum, and others I go to where I know even if I have a blinder in a really tough game, 70 is the best I'm gonna get, and if they feel aggrieved about anything I'm most likely looking at 65 or less.
If they had any bearing more significant than they currently do, refs would be dropping off of games involving certain clubs left right and centre, and way more so than they do currently due to perceived low marking observers
Yes, I understand this, and it's always most referees' perception that this renders club marks useless. However, whilst this argument has significant statistical relevance for referees who do not participate in many games within a marking campaign, the issue is far outweighed by the 'law of big numbers' for those who have good availability
So, not withstanding the argument you put forward and without being a clever dick with some attempt at some A-Level Maths, what would your common sense say about my scores this season from.....
4 observations
34 club marks (of which I got 6x the dreaded 70 mark, leaving 28 clubs who made an effort, good or bad. And yes, I had a host of clubs who score better than others, as we all did)
Which of the two is likely to better reflect the season I've had? Especially given observation reports are flawed to a lesser extent. I did ok on both as it happens, but that's not the point
It's also false to devalue their collective appraisal. Just watch Dermott Gallagher fumble on Refs Watch as former players make him look silly. Most secretaries are reasonably fair and their opinions are collectively relevant
Anyway, my overriding and pertinent comment, is that I've little interest of specializing as an Step 3/4 AR because the scores are an intolerably weak reflector of performance.
On the aspects you refer to in this comment and the one previous on this occasion I disagree with you about the worthiness or not of Observer reports on a Referee’s performance. I am not saying it’s perfect & there is the question of consistency between Observers as well as possible north/south divide, though there was evidence a season or so ago that the divide was much smaller than it used to be. In my world if an Observer is doing their job properly, then whether it’s a average or high intensity game, the Observer still needs to analyse what the Referee actually did during the game & even in a hum drum game a Referee can still perform above expected under quite a few competencies & can only do what is placed in front of him/her. Clearly, if a game has had say 6 KMI’s & 2 potential KMI’s as I had recently, then so long as they were dealt with appropriately, then it’s very likely the Referee is going to receive a very decent mark (which Observers can no longer see). The other thing is, what would a better process/system look like - I haven’t come across one yet?