Leeds vs Liverpool

[Joshref]

Handball in the build up to goal number 1?

Sky Sports claiming VAR said it was handball but too far back to have an impact.

 

[GraemeS]

Don't buy that argument at all, if it's handball then it's clearly key to the goal.

Is it HB though? Pretty borderline for me - there's a slight movement towards the ball, but arms are still low and it's hit hard at him from very close. I could definitely buy it not being a C&O HB and so sticking to the onfield call

 

[JamesL]

It's not deliberate.
He doesn't immediately score.
No issues there..
Has he made the body unnaturally bigger? That's debatable for sure but it is not a clear and obvious error not to award handball here.

I agree with Graeme in that its part of the attacking phase so is definitely checkable and reviewable as part of the goal but my opinion here is that no handball is not a clear and obvious mistake from the on field team so goal stands.

 

[RustyRef]

His arm moves out a little, but it doesn't make his body any bigger and certainly wasn't immediately before a goal was scored. Don't really see how VAR could get involved there as it is very subjective.

 

[CaptainsPlease]

Agree, not clear and obvious error.

 

[santa sangria]

IMHO obviously deliberately handles by sticking his elbow out.

Leeds were atrocious. They have a couple of exciting new players but the back 7 are poor. They have looked like the least skillful team in the division all season. Today it was combined with a stunning passivity. Bizarre.

 

[ARF]

IMHO obviously deliberately handles by sticking his elbow out.

Have you watched it in full speed? There is absolutely no chance that TAA's reactions (or any other human's, for that matter) are quick enough to deliberately handle that... IMO, of course.

 

[santa sangria]

Have you watched it in full speed? There is absolutely no chance that TAA's reactions (or any other human's, for that matter) are quick enough to deliberately handle that... IMO, of course.

Yes. For me he sticks his elbow out to play the ball.

 

[Mac]

Have you watched it in full speed? There is absolutely no chance that TAA's reactions (or any other human's, for that matter) are quick enough to deliberately handle that... IMO, of course.

Yet that's exactly what he did so he did have time to move his arm towards the ball, and therefore gain control of it leading to the goal. Handball all day for me.

 

[wazztie16]

I didn't think it was handball at the time, fwiw. I can see why it would be given, maybe from certain angles, but I think I'd be going no offence in my games.

 

[Ref X]

I'm surprised to see so many people saying this isn't a handball. Clearly is, IMO!

I don't think he purposefully handled the ball but moving his arm towards the ball in this situation does make his body unnaturally bigger, right?

The one thing I haven't fully seen is how far before the goal it happens. It happened in the final third so pretty close to goal but if the goal was scored 15+ seconds later or after a few passes, I could definitely see them not overturning with VAR.

 

[santa sangria]

I guess we see different things and these things are in the opinion of the referee.

I am trying to find video from the front that shows the player move his elbow to the ball deliberately.

And here is a pic showing the player has made his body bigger…

I’m kinda surprised there’s even debate on this. Even Talk*** - that hotbed of referee talent - is overwhelmingly HB

 

[santa sangria]

I'm surprised to see so many people saying this isn't a handball. Clearly is, IMO!

I don't think he purposefully handled the ball but moving his arm towards the ball in this situation does make his body unnaturally bigger, right?

The one thing I haven't fully seen is how far before the goal it happens. It happened in the final third so pretty close to goal but if the goal was scored 15+ seconds later or after a few passes, I could definitely see them not overturning with VAR.

The HB won the ball, 3 passes and 8 secs later ish it’s in the net.

 

[JamesL]

I guess we see different things and these things are in the opinion of the referee.

I am trying to find video from the front that shows the player move his elbow to the ball deliberately.

And here is a pic showing the player has made his body bigger…

I’m kinda surprised there’s even debate on this. Even Talk*** - that hotbed of referee talent - is overwhelmingly HB

Yes but most associations and confederations seem to still be teaching reflexology as a consideration... Think there is even an IFAB q&a that supports that thinking.
If I kicked a ball at you from such a short distance I think you end up in a very similar pose as the still and so on that basis it would seem I am leaning to justifiable for that specific situation.
It certainly is not one I want/expect VAR to get involved in. It's not clear and obvious at full speed which is supposed to be what is used primarily

 

[BCMilan]

If we can't agree on here whether it's handball or not, then it's not a clear and obious error.

Everyone seems to be screaming for VAR to intervene with every decision now. Surely, it should be for "clear" mistakes, not subjective matters.

 

[GraemeS]

The HB won the ball, 3 passes and 8 secs later ish it’s in the net.

HB isn't defined by how much of an advantage is gained. We all agree the VAR has standing to get involved, but this is irrelevant to deciding if it actually is HB or not.

 

[GraemeS]

I guess we see different things and these things are in the opinion of the referee.

I am trying to find video from the front that shows the player move his elbow to the ball deliberately.

And here is a pic showing the player has made his body bigger…

I’m kinda surprised there’s even debate on this. Even Talk*** - that hotbed of referee talent - is overwhelmingly HB

Stills/slow-motion should be used to determine point of contact only etc....

That is barely making himself bigger, his arms are still basically down by his side and when you actually watch it full speed, the idea that he reacted to block the ball (while also turning his head away from the anticipated impact) is crediting him with reactions that should have him donning a cape and fighting crime by night.

 

[Ref X]

Yes but most associations and confederations seem to still be teaching reflexology as a consideration... Think there is even an IFAB q&a that supports that thinking.

@JamesL I do like this in theory as I think it might help with the "purposeful" definition here. I'm with you to a point.

But I also feel like this would conflict with the other handball considerations. You can react subconsciously and still be making your body unnaturally bigger, right?

What if TAA had done this on the goal line and no handball had been called like Willian against Man U. Would VAR have called it a "clear and obvious error" and a handball + sending off? I think definitely yes! So why isn't it called 3 passes and 8 seconds before a goal?

HB isn't defined by how much of an advantage is gained.

@GraemeS You are absolutely right here. But honestly, the part that bugs me the most about this replay is TAA extends his elbow, the ball hits his elbow and then goes directly to Mo Salah like a pass! Doesn't affect whether it was a handball or not but I feel like the ball touching an arm and creating a promising attack is a weak spot in the LOTG. What do you think?

 

[RustyRef]

The HB won the ball, 3 passes and 8 secs later ish it’s in the net.

But that is completely irrelevant, TAA didn't immediately score following the ball hitting his arm.

I can see both arguments here, but the the fact that a group of referees don't agree means it cannot possibly have been a clear and obvious error not to give the handling. Clear and obvious says that we should all be saying it was a bad mistake.

 

[Ref X]

@RustyRef Ahh, OK. So "immediately" is really what we're looking for here. I was thinking more "same phase of play."

Then I agree, Rusty. You're probably right!