A&H

Leeds vs Liverpool

The Referee Store
I must admit at the time I thought HB but if it had been given, I suspect we'd still be seeing the same 50/50 argument. :D
 
Thanks, Rusty. Always love to be humbled by the fact that I mostly know the LOTG but frequently forget one word that makes all the difference haha.

Need to get some study sessions in!
 
santa sangria said:
I guess we see different things and these things are in the opinion of the referee.

I am trying to find video from the front that shows the player move his elbow to the ball deliberately.

And here is a pic showing the player has made his body bigger…

I’m kinda surprised there’s even debate on this. Even Talk*** - that hotbed of referee talent - is overwhelmingly HB 🤷‍♀️
Click to expand...
I don't think "unnaturally bigger" is relevent here. The arm is by his side and if his arm wasn't there, the ball would've hit his body anyway. The only question is whether it was deliberate and, since the ball was struck at him from such close range, i don't think it was (things look worse in slow motion).
 
Last edited:
RustyRef said:
But that is completely irrelevant, TAA didn't immediately score following the ball hitting his arm.

I can see both arguments here, but the the fact that a group of referees don't agree means it cannot possibly have been a clear and obvious error not to give the handling. Clear and obvious says that we should all be saying it was a bad mistake.
Click to expand...
More trolling. Could you stop please?

It is relevant as it was asked, and part of the discussion was about if it was the relevant phase of play for VAR to get involved.
 
Mr Dean said:
I don't think "unnaturally bigger" is relevent here. The arm is by his side and if his arm wasn't there, the ball would've hit his body anyway. The only question is whether it was deliberate and, since the ball was struck at him from such close range, i don't think it was (things look worse in slow motion).
Click to expand...
I see it differently. He moved his arm towards the ball in a "roll of lino". IMHO deliberate handball. And if not deliberate, also unnaturally bigger. Odd that I find myself agreeing with Peter Walton;)
 
santa sangria said:
More trolling. Could you stop please?

It is relevant as it was asked, and part of the discussion was about if it was the relevant phase of play for VAR to get involved.
Click to expand...
Appreciate that, I realised after I'd posted that you were replying to a reply, so for that I apologise.

The trolling comment is noted and remembered though 😂
 
santa sangria said:
I see it differently. He moved his arm towards the ball in a "roll of lino". IMHO deliberate handball. And if not deliberate, also unnaturally bigger. Odd that I find myself agreeing with Peter Walton;)
Click to expand...
I disagree that it was deliberate but only TAA will know for sure. However, I am interested to understand your rationale behind your "unnaturally bigger" argument. I just can't see how this position can be considered making his body 'bigger' – the ball was going to hit his rib cage anyway.
 
Mr Dean said:
I disagree that it was deliberate but only TAA will know for sure. However, I am interested to understand your rationale behind your "unnaturally bigger" argument. I just can't see how this position can be considered making his body 'bigger' – the ball was going to hit his rib cage anyway.
Click to expand...
Pls see the image in post 12 or find the video.

Stick your right elbow out to the side and a bit back.

He’s stuck his elbow out. To play the ball. His elbow sticking out is the rationale for making his body bigger.

(I find it strange that there are different views on this.)
 
I see how people can see the slow-mo and think "handball" - I did too when watching live and seeing the first replay.

I absolutely don't understand how that opinion can be maintained when seeing it full speed. He's actively trying to duck away from the ball and protect himself once he realises he's second to it, there's no chance of any conscious play to block the ball at that speed.
 
Last edited:
santa sangria said:
Pls see the image in post 12 or find the video.

Stick your right elbow out to the side and a bit back.

He’s stuck his elbow out. To play the ball. His elbow sticking out is the rationale for making his body bigger.

(I find it strange that there are different views on this.)
Click to expand...
I understand why you believe it to be deliberate - I think you may have been influenced by the slow mo replays - but I think you've got 'unnaturally bigger' wrong; in particular, the 'bigger' part. If not TAA's arm, the ball would've hit his rib cage. In other words: he did not make his body a bigger target.
 
Mr Dean said:
I understand why you believe it to be deliberate - I think you may have been influenced by the slow mo replays - but I think you've got 'unnaturally bigger' wrong; in particular, the 'bigger' part. If not TAA's arm, the ball would've hit his rib cage. In other words: he did not make his body a bigger target.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, for better or worse, we are in LotG land. There is nothing in the LotG about “well it might have hit him”. And we know enough from the last few years and the LotG that if your arms are away from your sides you are taking a risk.

If you don’t believe it was a deliberate handball, the question according to the LotG:

“A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised…”

Video geolocked here: https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1759377/Leeds-Liverpool-VAR/amp

For me, Trent has no justification for sticking his elbow out - other than playing the ball with his arm.

Looking at both his arms, as the pundits point out in the video, it could be interpreted that he is expecting to protect himself from the ball by raising his hands. If that’s the case, he’s a silly billy. While we might let a 9 year old off for protecting their face, we can’t IMHO let a professional footballer off for raising their arms to block the ball - especially if it leads to a goal and VAR check!!!

Crazy.

(In all this I am a Liverpool fan snd delighted in the goal fest. But as a referee I thought this was the gamechanging KMI and the officials got it wrong).
 
santa sangria said:
Looking at both his arms, as the pundits point out in the video, it could be interpreted that he is expecting to protect himself from the ball by raising his hands. If that’s the case, he’s a silly billy. While we might let a 9 year old off for protecting their face, we can’t IMHO let a professional footballer off for raising their arms to block the ball - especially if it leads to a goal and VAR check!!!
Click to expand...
Screenshot_20230420-150132.png

Back to my earlier point. IFAB disagrees with you on this very scenario of reflex protection.
 
The continued disagreements on here all lead back to the same conclusion ...

... handball or not handball, it can't possibly have been a clear and obvious error not to penalise it.
 
santa sangria said:
Do you think this is the same as the OP ?
Click to expand...
Not exactly. There is still the body being made unnaturally bigger debate to be had, which in my first post I said it is debatable
But, my gut says it's not unnaturally bigger for the specific situation and was a reflex action.
What it certainly isn't is a c&o error to be re referee'd
 
Just because people interpret the law differently doesn’t mean it’s not a c&o error. It means the law is too vague and too open to interpretation!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top