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Learning the rules after witnessing violent conduct U8's training session

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llordvenger

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Hi all, found this forum after witnessing violent coduct in my eldest lad's U8's training session. Concerned is an understatement from witnessing violent conduct.

First stud mark is not shown on the picture, in person it was about 2 inches above the knee.

You can see a stud pattern on the knee, and 2 bruises from studs going down to where excessive force has caused the entire shin pad to bruise the leg.

Here is my lads leg about 1 hour ½ after the stamp. Lighting is only from above so no ahadows.
 

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My lad said before being totally wiped out on an attack vs defense exercise- I quote " he knew what he was doing, he didn't even go for the ball "

The offense has been reported to head coach, and incedent confirmed by the adult trainer hosting the season.

A report is in progress. Head coach is a good guy - what should I be expecting in terms of proceedings please?

Defending player is a regular offender, I'm just sick of it, so asked coach to not have my lad on pitch, training or games at the same time.

So please, what should I expect.

Thanks
 
Sadly you have stumbled upon the wrong forum.

Whilst I am sorry your lad was on the end of what you describe as a bad foul challenge, what happens in training is no business of referees.

If you have concerns for welfare and safeguarding speak to your clubs safeguarding officer or county safeguarding officer.

Failing that, find another team.

We can only really advise on law which is only applied in a matchday situation.
 
With regards to to your reply and thank you.

I am also looking to potentially becoming an FA endorsed member of coaching staff and referee - how better to understand the beautiful game.

So to repeat the question without looking for a legally binding answer - would anybody else be willing to offer some opinions please.

My identity is anonymous and reactions will be read as such also. So asking for advice - not legal support thank you.

Surely this is exactly the correct forum to be reaching out to, for grass roots and fair play football.
 
llordvenger said:
Surely this is exactly the correct forum to be reaching out to, for grass roots and fair play football.
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Of course you can get an opinion. But we are referees. Our jurisdiction is law 1-17 and the rest of the LOTG.

We are football people of course, otherwise why would we bother, but ultimately your issue sits outside the purpose of this forum which is solely dedicated to refereeing.
 
JamesL said:
Sadly you have stumbled upon the wrong forum.

Whilst I am sorry your lad was on the end of what you describe as a bad foul challenge, what happens in training is no business of referees.

If you have concerns for welfare and safeguarding speak to your clubs safeguarding officer or county safeguarding officer.

Failing that, find another team.

We can only really advise on law which is only applied in a matchday situation.
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I read Law 12 and it seems to me to come under 'violent conduct' rather than exceesive force or something unsporting 'bad foul challenge '?

I was hoping for more understanding from an official, but thanks again.
 
JamesL said:
Of course you can get an opinion. But we are referees. Our jurisdiction is law 1-17 and the rest of the LOTG.

We are football people of course, otherwise why would we bother, but ultimately your issue sits outside the purpose of this forum which is solely dedicated to refereeing.
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Unless you are a moderator - I would welcome opinions from other users before continuing our brief chat thanks James.
 
llordvenger said:
I read Law 12 and it seems to me to come under 'violent conduct' rather than exceesive force or something unsporting 'bad foul challenge '?

I was hoping for more understanding from an official, but thanks again.
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It isn't anything as I didn't happen in a game.

If you want to be technical and assume it was in a game. As you describe it, it would be serious foul play. When challenging for the ball a player uses excessive force or brutality (an act that is deliberately violent) and or endangers opponents safety.

Although your boy says he didn't even attempt for the ball, that to me suggests he was in possession of the ball, so from a referee point of view this is serious foul play not violent conduct.
 
llordvenger said:
Nobody was in control of the ball thank you.

Any balanced views or opinions are entirely welcome please.
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Where was the ball? Were they challenging for it? Was it in playing distance?

If it is totally off the ball then its likely violent conduct, but if the ball was in the vicinity of the two players, they were chasing it, or challenging each other for it?

Stepping outside the refereeing world for a second: I find it hard to believe an u8 is running around assaulting team mates off the ball and the club are doing nothing about it.

Back to refereeing, if the ball is remotely anywhere near the offence and it happens during one or both players attempts to get to the ball we are in serious foul play land. If it's an attack away from the ball and playing distance of the ball then its VC is the most simplistic way to look at it.

Both would be red card offences in a game and the offences reported to county FA via match reporting system to decide on punishment.

In any event, It's an internal club matter, or county FA matter if you wish to take the matter further.
 
As James said, we are a referee forum and discuss issues related to the laws of the game. We get assigned to games and are charged with applying the laws in those games. We have no authority outside any duties assigned to us by a footballing authority.
What you describe is an issue at training where the laws of the game are somewhat irrelevant. Coaches design "games" and "drills" that follow different rules and they are generally the person responsible for what occurs in a session. They are bound by club and league rules as well as child safeguarding and welfare requirements, but again, not generally the laws of the game.

Now what happened to your son is horrible for him and you. I've coached some troublesome players in the past and its a nightmare. The first port of call is always the head coach who has responsibility for the session. If you get no joy, speak to the clubs child welfare officer. Failing that, as James said, raise it to the league, but as a parent, if I was not happy that a coach or club is not taking my concerns seriously, I would simply look for another club.
 
JamesL said:
Where was the ball? Were they challenging for it? Was it in playing distance?

If it is totally off the ball then its likely violent conduct, but if the ball was in the vicinity of the two players, they were chasing it, or challenging each other for it?

Stepping outside the refereeing world for a second: I find it hard to believe an u8 is running around assaulting team mates off the ball and the club are doing nothing about it.

Back to refereeing, if the ball is remotely anywhere near the offence and it happens during one or both players attempts to get to the ball we are in serious foul play land. If it's an attack away from the ball and playing distance of the ball then its VC is the most simplistic way to look at it.

Both would be red card offences in a game and the offences reported to county FA via match reporting system to decide on punishment.

In any event, It's an internal club matter, or county FA matter if you wish to take the matter further.
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I am able to read text books thank you again James for your input.

Out of curiosity, are you a member of the referee's association England, and perhaps one of the 927 of 7000 that replied to the BBC questionnaire?

The head coach is a good guy and surely enough making a report.

My original question was.......
 
llordvenger said:
I am able to read text books thank you again James for your input.
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The book doesn't explain the nuances. It's very easy to misninterpet "when challenging for the ball" as to having to decide on player intent which is not so. Kudos if you'd figured that out, But your post suggests that you had settled on VC on the basis of what your lad said. Just establishing the facts so you can be advised accordingly on interpretations of the laws of the game.
llordvenger said:
Out of curiosity, are you a member of the referee's association England, and perhaps one of the 927 of 7000 that replied to the BBC questionnaire?
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I am not.
 
James and Macca have both answered your question. During a match this sounds like it might have been SFP, punishable with a red card - although such a thing is almost unheard of at U8s!

On the training pitch there is no such thing - it's entirely up to you as a parent if you feel the sessions are being run safely. Accidents do happen and if you feel this is genuinely what happened and you're happy with the way the head coach dealt with it then that's the end of it.

If you're still unhappy, you've already been told that this should be escalated first to the club's safeguarding officer, then to the league/county equivalent if you still think it needs further action. And you always have the right to pull your son out of the specific club and encourage him to play elsewhere if you think the club as a whole isn't safe.

But there is no such thing as LOTG-defined Violent Conduct on the training pitch. There is no mechanism for the other player to be shown a red card, fined and banned for 3 matches, as there would be if it happened during a referee-supervised match. If that's the answer you're looking for, you won't find it - here or anywhere.
 
Your original question was:
llordvenger said:
So please, what should I expect.
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And I think the responses have pretty much covered it. This isn't a refereeing matter. Correct, the situation can be described and defined through the use of wording in Law 12, however Law 12 applies to Matchday Situations, not training sessions.

The majority of us here don't coach, and don't deal with the internal preceding of a club. We report our incidents to the CFA/FA, and they review the incidents.

In terms of what to expect, from when I used to play, we had this occur once, at U13. The player was reported to the clubs welfare officers, and higher levels (apologies, I don't know their official titles). They were then suspended for a fairly decent amount of time.

Please don't think that's a gaurentee for your child's club doing the same, this could be handled very differently, I couldn't possibly know.

I feel as though a coaching forum would've encountered this issue before, which is why James has correctly stated that we're not best placed to respond to this.
 
Seriously… you are taking on and questioning the advice of a highly skilled and experienced referee who has displayed, in my opinion, incredible patience and grace in responding to your query. I am sorry your son was injured in training, this is unfortunate. But James has given you thoughtful and legally correct answers to your theoretical game day scenarios. Might be best to leave it there?
 
Exactly George. Quoting law 12 is all well and good, but it's missing law 5 - the Authority of the Referee. Which starts with "Each match" and does not in any way cover training - or for that matter travel to/from a match, social events connected with the match or even warm up/warm down sessions.
 
GraemeS said:
Exactly George. Quoting law 12 is all well and good, but it's missing law 5 - the Authority of the Referee. Which starts with "Each match" and does not in any way cover training - or for that matter travel to/from a match, social events connected with the match or even warm up/warm down sessions.
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I'll give you warm down .. but warm up? Referees authority starts when? 😏
 
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