A&H

Joel Veltman throws sportsmanship out window...

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Brian Hamilton said:
Posting from phone so will make it brief.

Stop game, caution and restart IDFK.

Reason, he's an arse and for match control purposes.

For a parks game you might turn a blind eye to the next heavy challenge on that player too.
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So, players forget number 1 basic rule of "play to the whistle"....so you'll pander to their idiocy and award a IDFK plus caution an opponent who has done nothing wrong?

Pathetic.

No wonder players claim for ever more outlandish things when there are people who will pander to this level of stupidity.
 
The Referee Store
Last season I had two reds straight after the final whistle as players were walking off the field. It was a bloody awful game for Behaviour; one team (who needed to win to gain promotion) were 2-0 down within twenty minutes, one goal being a clear-cut penalty. They lost 4-2 and it was all my fault. I'd sent 1 off previously for dissent and then a crap tackle. The other two told me what they thought of me straight after the game. I showed the two reds and two cautions.

I phoned the Governance manager the day after and got some advice. I sent them all in as cautions and red cards. I then sent in a misconduct for the players behaviour at the end of the game, and another for comments made to me by the management team straight after which was aimed at me being a player (with a different club in a higher division). They all go to the same place. So long as they get reported, the Governance manager will deal with the rest.

We have just had a few referees suspended down here for not reporting cards. Don't make that mistake.
 
David Sutton said:
My thoughts are this:-
  1. You arrive at the FOP, get kitted out, exchange teamsheets and go out onto the pitch for a warm up. As you jog around the perimeter, you come to the goals and check the nets. While doing so, the GK scrapes his studs across the goal area to mark the middle of the area. You've seen it and you have the right to take disciplinary action. Show a yellow card? Do you even have cards on you at this stage? Personally, I'd inform the player he will be cautioned and explain why and when you will show him a yellow card. I don't have the power to show a yellow card at this stage but I can take disciplinary action therefore, after we've entered the FOP in readiness for KO, I'll walk up to the GK and show him a yellow card for all to see.
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It seems I may be wrong with #1 as the explanations in the LOTG say the following:--
"During the inspection of the field of play the referee can have the markings changed etc., so it is logical that this is when the authority to ‘send off’ a player starts. Non-sending-off offences will be reported so YCs cannot be issued prior to the match or carried into the match."

Is it possible a player may pick up a 'second' caution when in fact it is only their 'first'? How do you deal with a player defacing the markings on the pitch of you pick this up during a warm up? Or even immediately prior to KO as the teams get to their positions?
 
Speaking as a referee coach and mentor, ignore what Padfoot is saying here and stop the game. If you don't want to caution then stop it for the injured player, but one way or another stop it. No one will complain, and any observer worth his salt will back you 100% for what you did.

If you let play go on and a goal results then good luck for the rest of the game, what may have been a very easy game to referee is likely to turn into a total nightmare. Why put yourself in that position, especially when stopping play is entirely correct as the player has clearly showed a lack of respect for the game, which is a cautionable offence.
 
RustyRef said:
Speaking as a referee coach and mentor, ignore what Padfoot is saying here and stop the game. If you don't want to caution then stop it for the injured player, but one way or another stop it. No one will complain, and any observer worth his salt will back you 100% for what you did.

If you let play go on and a goal results then good luck for the rest of the game, what may have been a very easy game to referee is likely to turn into a total nightmare. Why put yourself in that position, especially when stopping play is entirely correct as the player has clearly showed a lack of respect for the game, which is a cautionable offence.
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Absolute balderdash.....

If you want to invent a reason to stop the game, to protect your club marks, then you could use the injury as justification to do that.......going to be an interesting sell though after you have signalled advantage.....

Make no mistakes here....the attacker has done nothing wrong......the hand wringing is all about saving club marks and nothing to do with correct application of the law.

Let's have some honesty about what is being done and why....instead of trying to dress it up as something it isn't.
 
Padfoot said:
Make no mistakes here....the attacker has done nothing wrong
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The recent rewrite of the LOTG was in significant part designed to emphasise the 'Spirit' of the game and make things fairer all round. Referees have also been encouraged to use their discretion in highly unusual situations to do the 'right' thing. This clip provides the perfect example of why IFAB have emphasised this area and any referee not choosing to take advantage of this discretion is, in my opinion, being grossly derelict in his or her duty.
 
Padfoot said:
Absolute balderdash.....

If you want to invent a reason to stop the game, to protect your club marks, then you could use the injury as justification to do that.......going to be an interesting sell though after you have signalled advantage.....

Make no mistakes here....the attacker has done nothing wrong......the hand wringing is all about saving club marks and nothing to do with correct application of the law.

Let's have some honesty about what is being done and why....instead of trying to dress it up as something it isn't.
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Actually you'll protect your Application of Law (clear act of deception and lack of respect for the game) and probably your Match Control (when it kicks off as per Rusty's comments above) marks, but why let the opinion of someone who knows get in the way of your rant.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
Actually you'll protect your Application of Law (clear act of deception and lack of respect for the game) and probably your Match Control (when it kicks off as per Rusty's comments above) marks, but why let the opinion of someone who knows get in the way of your rant.
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Except it's not a clear act of deception nor a lack of respect for the game......it's a lack of basic awareness on behalf of the defending team.......

As I explained earlier....if the player had actually turned as if to put the ball out of play, or even gone to kick towards the touchline but then didn't.....that would be a different scenario.....but he didn't.
 
Russell Jones said:
The recent rewrite of the LOTG was in significant part designed to emphasise the 'Spirit' of the game and make things fairer all round. Referees have also been encouraged to use their discretion in highly unusual situations to do the 'right' thing. This clip provides the perfect example of why IFAB have emphasised this area and any referee not choosing to take advantage of this discretion is, in my opinion, being grossly derelict in his or her duty.
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Spirit of the game is simply another way of saying "bottled the decision"......
 
So yet again you're right and everyone else is wrong, including two very experienced observers and referee coaches.

You certainly have faith in your view, I will give you that, just a pity so they they are so frequently misguided or just plain wrong.
 
RustyRef said:
So yet again you're right and everyone else is wrong, including two very experienced observers and referee coaches.

You certainly have faith in your view, I will give you that, just a pity so they they are so frequently misguided or just plain wrong.
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Unfortunately for you.....you don't get a monopoly on being right just because you are one of many many very experienced observers and coaches across the country........there's quite a lot of us about you know......

The difference is that I am honest enough to admit that this scenario is all about protecting club marks, especially further up the pyramid, than it is to do with any semblance of the correct application of law.......I utterly understand why you would encourage a referee to take the easy way out and invent a caution....however refereeing isn't about easy escape routes, it's about having the courage to take the honest path over the popular one.
 
Padfoot said:
Spirit of the game is simply another way of saying "bottled the decision"......
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So IFAB deliberately chose to introduce the notion of 'Sprit of the Game' into the recent rewrite of the Laws (Law 5, Page 45) in a weird attempt to allow referees to ignore the other 100 or so pages?! Even from you, my friend, that is a particularly bizarre and outlandish suggestion :)
 
David Sutton said:
My thoughts are this:-
  1. You arrive at the FOP, get kitted out, exchange teamsheets and go out onto the pitch for a warm up. As you jog around the perimeter, you come to the goals and check the nets. While doing so, the GK scrapes his studs across the goal area to mark the middle of the area. You've seen it and you have the right to take disciplinary action. Show a yellow card? Do you even have cards on you at this stage? Personally, I'd inform the player he will be cautioned and explain why and when you will show him a yellow card. I don't have the power to show a yellow card at this stage but I can take disciplinary action therefore, after we've entered the FOP in readiness for KO, I'll walk up to the GK and show him a yellow card for all to see.
  2. You've blown your whistle to finish the game (at FT, at ET or PKFTM it doesn't really matter). A player refuses to shake hands - so what? That's just a lack of respect and isn't obligatory. A captain says "don't shake hands with him, he's crap" - call the captain over and tell him you will report the comment as misconduct but what purpose does showing a yellow card serve here? None IMO, the game's over but disciplinary action can still be taken. If it is a 2nd caution, would you show a red card, too? Just write the misconduct report with the facts. Besides, if you brandish cards will it affect your match control afterwards or will it only serve to bring it to the attention of the calmly departing players? If the captain decides abuse makes him feel better, then simply reiterate you are reporting it as misconduct, again. Might even be two reports for two separate incidents. Is showing a red card allowed? The law doesn't appear to say so because the game has finished. Can disciplinary action be taken? Yes, because we haven't left the FOP yet.
  3. In the tunnel immediately prior to the entering the FOP, two players decide to fight each other. You don't show red cards stage because you haven't enter the FOP yet. You do however, prevent those two players from taking part, allow the teams to promote a named substitute (but not replace them on the bench) and write a misconduct report afterwards.
The start and end points of both statements in the law are different. Allowing you to take disciplinary action overlaps the period where you show yellow or red cards. For me leaving the FOP comes after the end of the match and therefore, no cards should be shown.
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I don't know what online system you use, but by not showing a yellow card, are you saying you would not put a yellow card in the system.. leaving it up to your league to scrutinise a written report for a caution...?
I'd love to get guidance from above on this. My sense tells me, if it's on the FOP then show the cards. They are great way to communicate with every present stakeholder, and make disciplinary procedures (cumulative suspensions etc.) straightforward...
 
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Joel Veltman has reportedly responded to the criticism he has received - "My team-mates told me in the dressing room that they would have kicked me hard had I pulled off something like this against one of them.
 
Padfoot said:
So, players forget number 1 basic rule of "play to the whistle"....so you'll pander to their idiocy and award a IDFK plus caution an opponent who has done nothing wrong?

Pathetic.

No wonder players claim for ever more outlandish things when there are people who will pander to this level of stupidity.
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are you for real?
 
Take personalities out of this and club marks etc what did the referee do in this situation...he played on why because in his opinion no offence was committed? Has he been hauled in front of a disciplinary committee? Has he received massive criticism for not stopping play and issuing a caution? Personally on a Saturday afternoon knowing some of the players I do, if I blew for this and then issued a caution I would be lynched, for the reason 'it's not my fault he's stupid enough to turn round!'...my opinion is the same as the referee on the night play on, no offence.

Most of the commentary about the issue has been about it being a little cheeky, no-one is screaming and shouting about any LOTG being broken or how the referee handled it other than referees here. So until, FIFA issue a directive saying that to point at someone on a field of play is an IDFK and a caution, IMHO I will continue to play on and ignore the stupidity of the defender.
 
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