Inappropriate comment to opposing team official

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

That's an interesting point that I was thinking about as I read this thread. Is the fact the abuse was directed at a female coach (in a men's game) swayed people towards a red?

Think I would be looking at her reaction, if she laughs if off and / or gives it back with interest it is going to be very difficult to give a red card there and you're on a hiding to nothing before a ball is kicked. Whereas if she doesn't take it well, looks or sounds offended, it makes the decision that much easier.

I'd imagine yes but more because discrimination is zero tolerance and this is one of those "quiet discrimination" incidences that is clearly sexist if you know what you're looking for (a woman being the target of something that a man wouldn't be targeted for in the same way). Like if a player called a female coach a slag or unf*ckable I'd consider that sex based discrimination. I have sent off a player before for saying someone "looked like a transvestite" on those grounds.

Edit: I'm slightly camp and once got called a "powder puff" in my teams purple GK kit, at the time I felt this could have a homophobic undertone but I think there is some benefit of doubt you have to apply.

 

[Will_A]

Yes I'm sending off for the latter comments in my post

You’re sending off for saying “fatty”?

 

[es1]

I'd imagine yes but more because discrimination is zero tolerance and this is one of those "quiet discrimination" incidences that is clearly sexist if you know what you're looking for (a woman being the target of something that a man wouldn't be targeted for in the same way). Like if a player called a female coach a slag or unf*ckable I'd consider that sex based discrimination. I have sent off a player before for saying someone "looked like a transvestite" on those grounds.

Edit: I'm slightly camp and once got called a "powder puff" in my teams purple GK kit, at the time I felt this could have a homophobic undertone but I think there is some benefit of doubt you have to apply.

I don't think this is discriminatory though, unless the fact she's female is referenced in the insult. Saying someone needs to go to weight watchers isn't, it could easily apply to me tbh

 

[mctones]

i absolutely think you need to deal with it

but players and officials will always be insulting and offensive and abusive to each other - I don't think red/yellow should be the default action here

Is it perhaps the case that it is incumbent on us to start a change, rather than accept it? The players and coaches won’t do it by themselves.

If we get better at enforcing the laws and *spirit* of the game, particularly at youth level, this will propagate through as they get older?

 

[es1]

Is it perhaps the case that it is incumbent on us to start a change, rather than accept it? The players and coaches won’t do it by themselves.

If we get better at enforcing the laws and *spirit* of the game, particularly at youth level, this will propagate through as they get older?

I mean, best of luck, but you're fighting a massive losing battle

 

[RustyRef]

Is it perhaps the case that it is incumbent on us to start a change, rather than accept it? The players and coaches won’t do it by themselves.

If we get better at enforcing the laws and *spirit* of the game, particularly at youth level, this will propagate through as they get older?

There's a phrase about those who stick their head above the parapet can expect to have it shot off. It needs a coordinated drive from the top, not individual or small number of referees on a crusade.

 

[santa sangria]

You’re sending off for saying “fatty”?

Some context…

Context A: match context. Every scenario is different. The threshold for OFFINABUS changes for every referee in every scenario.

Context B: this forum. There have been a bazillion threads on this topic and we should not get into a slanging match.

Think about categories of language: is it pejorative, insulting to a minority, offensive in a family environment, is it sexist, racist, homophobic, misogynist etc.? Think about the context: is it aggressive, who is it to, how is it said, when, why… sometimes these things make a difference, sometimes not…

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

You’re sending off for saying “fatty”?

In the right context, yes. It’s an absolutely **** thing to say to someone and definitely comes under OFFINABUS. I’d rather be called a dickhead etc than have my physical appearance stuck in there.

 

[Max2]

Given this a lot of thought throughout the thread. Think I'd go red. CFA can deal with it.

 

[Dan56]

I think we must remember that personalised insults do hit home all the harder. Before I became a ref I was CAR for a local team for many years. In those days (80s) offsides were very common, easy to give 15-20 every game. Our centre half had a little ploy where just as the keeper took a drop kick (very common when backpasses were allowed) he would make a single step forward to play the opposing striker offside. This often led to them getting irate with ME. The number of times I was called C**t or F***ing idiot and it just washed over me....it was generalised abuse and I did not take it personally. One game however the player looked across at me (I was a little on the heavy side) and shouted "How the f**k can I be offside, you stupid fat pudding!" This struck home badly and I flagged the ref and said I would not continue if people were allowed to talk like that to me. The player got a yellow card. I will never allow personal insults into my games: I red carded a female player for calling her opponent a fat b**ch. Stamp it out soon, stamp it out fully. Totally unacceptable.

 

[Kes]

I'd imagine yes but more because discrimination is zero tolerance and this is one of those "quiet discrimination" incidences that is clearly sexist if you know what you're looking for (a woman being the target of something that a man wouldn't be targeted for in the same way). Like if a player called a female coach a slag or unf*ckable I'd consider that sex based discrimination. I have sent off a player before for saying someone "looked like a transvestite" on those grounds.

Edit: I'm slightly camp and once got called a "powder puff" in my teams purple GK kit, at the time I felt this could have a homophobic undertone but I think there is some benefit of doubt you have to apply.

I rather think you may have highlighted your own sexism with that post.

Are you suggesting that a female player saying it to a male or even another female is somehow less insulting(?) I should hope not.

An insult is an insult, no matter who it's directed at or by whom.

In this particular instance, like @RustyRef says, you're best going by how the recipient reacts to the insult (which incidentally is the yardstick I use for practically every potential OFFINABUS language I hear on the field).

Your job is to be there to referee the match for the players and do what the LOTG dictate in accordance with what that particular game expects - not look to pin things under Law 12 where you can and act as some sort of SJW rather than a referee ...

 

[GraemeS]

The entire legal concept of protected classes lays out the idea that we are expected to act differently with some groups of people than others.

Claiming "not to see race/gender/sexuality" is a wildly outdated approach to equality and it ignores ingrained disadvantages that exist and that need to be actively worked against. It's not sexist to be aware of the fact that you're refereeing a woman's match (or that some participants in men's football may be female).

Certain words are going to hit harder or have minimal effect depending who they're directed at, and it's part of our job to be aware that some participants in a game may be of a different race, sexuality, have hidden disabilities etc, and to modify our decisions based on that.



In this specific case, it's is absolutely correct to be aware of the fact that the insult in question has been thrown at a woman, and to consider the fact that weight-based discrimination is far more prevalent and impactful for women than it is for men. What decision you then choose to come to is up to you, but it's absolutely not sexist or wrong to consider all relevant factors before making that call.

 

[Kes]

In this specific case, it's is absolutely correct to be aware of the fact that the insult in question has been thrown at a woman, and to consider the fact that weight-based discrimination is far more prevalent and impactful for women than it is for men.

Stop making stuff up. If that's true then please provide a link to a researched and learned independent study undertaken that absolutely proves what you've just said please. If you can't, then it's simply your own opinion.

"Weight-based discrimmination" as you call it is not a protected characteristic and even if it was, it would apply equally to whatever gender.

 

[GraemeS]

Stop making stuff up. If that's true then please provide a link to a researched and learned independent study undertaken that absolutely proves what you've just said please. If you can't, then it's simply your own opinion.

"Weight-based discrimmination" as you call it is not a protected characteristic and even if it was, it would apply equally to whatever gender.

I mean it's not tricky. I googled "weight based discrimination by gender" and found the following researched study pop up as the first link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5846936/

If you do prefer the information is a slightly more readable form, the second link is the following: https://www.obesityaction.org/resources/weight-bias-does-it-affect-men-and-women-differently/ - perhaps not cited in the same way, but written by authors with excellent credentials.

The first link is from 2018, the second link from 2013. The idea that you have managed to avoid knowing this evident truth for 10 years is hard to believe, but let's assume good faith and so I'll just say I'm happy to have helped educate you on this.

With respect to refereeing, I don't claim that weight discrimination is a protected characteristic. But a) that doesn't mean we can't red card for it anyway if we see fit and b) gender is, and so we are obliged to consider how an insult might affect people of different genders differently when deciding what colour of card to show. That's second bit in particular is in response the statement you made previously - considering gender etc. as part of our OFFINABUS decisions isn't only not sexist, it's actually something we are supposed to be doing.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

I rather think you may have highlighted your own sexism with that post.

Are you suggesting that a female player saying it to a male or even another female is somehow less insulting(?) I should hope not.

An insult is an insult, no matter who it's directed at or by whom.

In this particular instance, like @RustyRef says, you're best going by how the recipient reacts to the insult (which incidentally is the yardstick I use for practically every potential OFFINABUS language I hear on the field).

Your job is to be there to referee the match for the players and do what the LOTG dictate in accordance with what that particular game expects - not look to pin things under Law 12 where you can and act as some sort of SJW rather than a referee ...

Oh are you the referee who didn't report when I said I was called a spastic as a player? Same grim attitude. I suppose because the player might not have known I was disabled it doesn't matter. Or maybe I need some facts and logic to prove disability discrimination exists first.

Edit: The SJW comment has really flagged up this whole post for me. I went down that rabbit hole as a teenager and then I grew up. I'm not sending off players for saying the wage gap is a myth, I will be for targeting someone because of who they are.