A&H

I saw it but didn’t call it…what would you do???

O

Oldref

New Member
Free kick from 25 yards out, I am center. Player rips a shot at the net, a hand comes up from the scrum and punches it away.

My first thoughts -that hand that punched had no glove, the keeper has done nothing that athletic all game….. it was a scrum of players where the arm came from. Nobody from either team reacted to it, but I thought I saw it as a defender punching it away.

I blew my whistle, called over the AR and he saw nothing. Even if I was 100% sure it was a non-gloved punch I was only 50% on which player did it.

We called nothing, game ended 1-0 with team not awarded the pk/red card losing.

How do I call a play I am 80% sure of the result but 50% on who committed it?

Found out after I was right, it was the player I thought too.

What would you have done? I am so disappointed in myself.
 
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Oldref said:
Free kick from 25 yards out, I am center. Player rips a shot at the net, a hand comes up from the scrum and punches it away.

My first thoughts -that hand that punched had no glove, the keeper has done nothing that athletic all game….. it was a scrum of players where the arm came from. Nobody from either team reacted to it, but I thought I saw it as a defender punching it away.

I blew my whistle, called over the AR and he saw nothing. Even if I was 100% sure it was a non-gloved punch I was only 50% on which player did it.

We called nothing, game ended 1-0 with team not awarded the pk/red card losing.

How do I call a play I am 80% sure of the result but 50% on who committed it?

Found out after I was right, it was the player I thought too.

What would you have done? I am so disappointed in myself.
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You can only give what you see, especially in a penalty/dismissal situation in a tight match.
If unsure, and with no signal from your AR/no claim from the attacking team, playing on would have been the best approach.
Giving yourself a second or two of thinking time would have allowed you to consider "No claims, no flag, I'm unsure"
and carry on.
 
With the obvious disclsimer of not being personal, you, as referee stopping play, then going uninvited to confer here with the AR is not how things are done

had you done that to me, I would have stared at you in astonishment, possibly used industrial language, and you would have lost whatever, if any, credibility that you had.

There are very rare occasions where we can second guess incidents, this huge pk shout is not one of them.
Only in this case, from your tale, there was not even shouts.
Read your game, read your players, there are no prizes given out for being the only person to see something

As above, take your time, play the incident back in your head, survey the crime scene, Regardless of watching it back later, you can only give what you see at the time.

and certainly refrain from involving the ar in your own dubious calls, you will lose their trust
 
As is unfortunately a reoccurring theme, I don't agree with the way Anubis is approaching working with AR's at all. You think you've seen a goal-saving handball in the box but don't know which way to go? 100% the correct time to call in every resource you have available to you to try and get the right decision.

It can be difficult for AR's to know when you want them to get involved, especially when they also only have 80% certainty, but by adding the two together you can sometimes get to a good degree of confidence. This is literally the reason pro referees pay thousands for comms kits. For all you know the AR could have said "I know the blue player was the one that played it, but his arm was up by his head and I didn't see which it hit" - add that in to your relative confidence it did hit a hand of some sort and you've got a decision I'd be happy to stand behind.

Having said all that, I still think I can pick 2 "development points" out from your post to think about:
1. You say that you blew your whistle, so I presume the ball was still in play? Holding up a restart to discuss with the AR is legit and easy to do - at the very least, you need to make a decision on corner/GK or direction of throw, so why not also consider the possible penalty? Conversely if you're stopping play, potentially halting a counter-attack, you need to be pretty confident you're going to give the decision - more confident that it sounds like you were.

I'd be looking for a) big appeals from the attacking team and b) the only thing the AR could say to have you not give the penalty is "no, that was definitely the GK who punched it". As it was, you ended up disrupting the game and having a conversation with your AR for seemingly no reason (from the player perspective), then presumably had to restart with a drop ball, which isn't ideal either? It overall probably looked a little sloppy, but I think it's just down to a slight miscalibration of when it's appropriate to do what you did - not that what you did was wrong, rather you just need to slightly raise your "certainty threshold" if you're going to do it.

2. It might seem harsh, but you do need to get used to missing some calls. You're literally one person stood in one position - there will be decisions you don't see clearly, it's an inevitable past of refereeing. You're there, you're neutral, you've done your best - that's all you can ask. Full 360° vision of every decision from every angle is an unrealistic expectation, and one you need to move past, because this will happen again and you can't keep beating yourself up every time it does happen.
 
Oldref said:
Free kick from 25 yards out, I am center. Player rips a shot at the net, a hand comes up from the scrum and punches it away.

My first thoughts -that hand that punched had no glove, the keeper has done nothing that athletic all game….. it was a scrum of players where the arm came from. Nobody from either team reacted to it, but I thought I saw it as a defender punching it away.

I blew my whistle, called over the AR and he saw nothing. Even if I was 100% sure it was a non-gloved punch I was only 50% on which player did it.

We called nothing, game ended 1-0 with team not awarded the pk/red card losing.

How do I call a play I am 80% sure of the result but 50% on who committed it?

Found out after I was right, it was the player I thought too.

What would you have done? I am so disappointed in myself.
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My view :
1. If no-one is appealing, you better be 100% sure and have big balls to give it. Being the only one to see something is not a great starting point for selling any decision and you may well be wrong anyway. Maybe behaviours are different in your leagues, but where I referee I can't remember the last time I gave a penalty where there was no appeal and it's not on my I-spy list to tick off for next season !
2. If you blow, you've got to give something. I guess your restart was an interesting moment ?
3. Normal SOP would be if you are not sure, enquiring look at AR if they have a credible view inviting him / her to give you something if they have it. Flag up, trot across for a chat to clarify if necessary. No reaction, shake of head or shrug of shoulders, you're not sure, they are not sure, play on
 
Anubis said:
With the obvious disclsimer of not being personal, you, as referee stopping play, then going uninvited to confer here with the AR is not how things are done

had you done that to me, I would have stared at you in astonishment, possibly used industrial language, and you would have lost whatever, if any, credibility that you had.

There are very rare occasions where we can second guess incidents, this huge pk shout is not one of them.
Only in this case, from your tale, there was not even shouts.
Read your game, read your players, there are no prizes given out for being the only person to see something

As above, take your time, play the incident back in your head, survey the crime scene, Regardless of watching it back later, you can only give what you see at the time.

and certainly refrain from involving the ar in your own dubious calls, you will lose their trust
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You're fundamentally right IMO
The culture in the game prevents us from using our AR's in line with ordinary common sense. Of course there are occasions when we'd like to know the AR's opinion, but in the absence of Comms or an obvious signal from the AR, we can't go seeking that opinion in the vast majority of scenarios. At the same time, no statement of that nature is black/white. I have on rare occasions approached an AR in atypical circumstances, but it wouldn't be possible to verbalise when to do this. Experience, experience, experience; of which we're all on an endless path towards being experienced
 
Quarryref said:
1. If no-one is appealing, you better be 100% sure and have big balls to give it. Being the only one to see something is not a great starting point for selling any decision and you may well be wrong anyway. Maybe behaviours are different in your leagues, but where I referee I can't remember the last time I gave a penalty where there was no appeal and it's not on my I-spy list to tick off for next season !
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😻
Quarryref said:
2. If you blow, you've got to give something. I guess your restart was an interesting moment ?
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Sounds like the ball may have already been out of play, otherwise yeh, the restart is gonna be wrong whatever it is
Quarryref said:
3. Normal SOP would be if you are not sure, enquiring look at AR if they have a credible view inviting him / her to give you something if they have it. Flag up, trot across for a chat to clarify if necessary. No reaction, shake of head or shrug of shoulders, you're not sure, they are not sure, play on
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Yup, that's the crux of it. Although, like I said above, there can be atypical situations in which you can get a second opinion (without comms or a signal from the AR), but they're really quite rare and not worth trying to put into words
 
I don't think the restart here is complicated or problematic at all: play was stopped and there was no offense, so the restart is a DB. That part is really simple under the Laws. (Indeed, it is exactly what we see with VAR interventions that don't result in a reversal.)

The real question is whether it was appropriate to stop play to consult with the AR here. Step one, IMO, was left out--eye contact with the AR. If the AR had something to share that the AR didn't think was enough to raise the flag, the AR should be seeking eye contact with the R, and can give a really good clue that there is something to talk about that (and we could debate whether the better practice would be to stop play if there was a truly neutral situation or to wait for a natural stoppage--as the R can change a decision until there has been a restart). Absent that, I would agree with the school of thought above that stopping play isn't a good choice. This really is a call you have to be positive to make, and if the AR isn't giving any sign that you missed something, the odds of getting any useful info are extremely low. So there is little to gain, and much potential for lost confidence/respect.
 
socal lurker said:
I don't think the restart here is complicated or problematic at all: play was stopped and there was no offense, so the restart is a DB. That part is really simple under the Laws. (Indeed, it is exactly what we see with VAR interventions that don't result in a reversal.)

The real question is whether it was appropriate to stop play to consult with the AR here. Step one, IMO, was left out--eye contact with the AR. If the AR had something to share that the AR didn't think was enough to raise the flag, the AR should be seeking eye contact with the R, and can give a really good clue that there is something to talk about that (and we could debate whether the better practice would be to stop play if there was a truly neutral situation or to wait for a natural stoppage--as the R can change a decision until there has been a restart). Absent that, I would agree with the school of thought above that stopping play isn't a good choice. This really is a call you have to be positive to make, and if the AR isn't giving any sign that you missed something, the odds of getting any useful info are extremely low. So there is little to gain, and much potential for lost confidence/respect.
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yes

Ref giving somehing, or appearing to, then unprompted consulting with the AR will result in players, coach, fans, and fellow official, losinb trust in the referee.

it also through no fault of the AR leaves the AR with some extra pressurethat they do not need, ' what was that about lino?" etc

those only you see it calls, if you are going to give it, you need to at least give it with confidence
 
No appeal for a handball on the line should have alarm bells ringing. What you have a to very quickly process in your head is did you definitely see a defender handling, and if so who was it. Just thinking it was a defender is likely to be problematic as you are going to need to send someone off, and if you don't know who it was that is going to be extremely challenging.

My advice would be don't stop play, but rather be staring at your AR and boring a hole in his head, inviting him to come in and help. If he gives you nothing, and you aren't sure what you have seen, you'll just have to chalk it down to experience. At a push you could go and speak to the AR when the ball goes out of play, if it happens quickly, but that would be chucking him under the bus a bit as everyone will know he gave it, and will rightly question why he didn't signal straight away if he was sure.

It happens to us all where we think we have seen something happen but just aren't sure enough to do anything about it.
 
Oldref said:
I blew my whistle, called over the AR and he saw nothing. Even if I was 100% sure it was a non-gloved punch I was only 50% on which player did it.

We called nothing, game ended 1-0 with team not awarded the pk/red card losing.
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Just to clarify ... AR or CAR?
 
Quarryref said:
My view :
1. If no-one is appealing, you better be 100% sure and have big balls to give it. Being the only one to see something is not a great starting point for selling any decision and you may well be wrong anyway. Maybe behaviours are different in your leagues, but where I referee I can't remember the last time I gave a penalty where there was no appeal and it's not on my I-spy list to tick off for next season !
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Having given a pk when I was the only one to think so, I can support your desire to avoid it.
 
Was this a neutral or club AR?
I wouldn't be asking club ARs on these decisions.
There is some good advice in this thread, but no way are CARs assisting on goal line handballs.
Win some, lose some, see some, miss some. The beauty of parks football.
 
We are locally assigned yes. I agree with the point. I was hoping he could help but even as I jogged over I knew it was fruitless.

Seems my best bet was to play on as no reaction or signals from anyone.

This has been great therapy and learning for me, I really appreciate everyone’s time and thoughts.
 
Oldref said:
Sorry, I asked the AR.
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To be honest, I'm still not sure if you had proper qualified assistants or just club linos but assuming it was a club lino, as @JamesL says above, it's unlikely you'd get a clear (and honest?) response from a CAR even if he did see a member of his own team handle the ball in the penalty area which is what it sounds like you think you saw(?)

Situations like that are made dead easy if there's no appeal from anybody. Play on!! ;) :)
 
Oldref said:
This has been great therapy and learning for me, I really appreciate everyone’s time and thoughts.
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We all learn every game. If we were perfect, we wouldn't be at the level we're currently at :D (use that phrase VERY liberally with upset players) :D

Onwards and upwards my friend!
 
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