The Ref Stop

goalkeeper sent off for handball - dogso?

The Ginger Ref said:
Is the OP feeling okay?

Not sure how this isn't DOGSO, applying the laws of the game:

"Where a player denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence, the player is sent off wherever the offence occurs (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)."
  • distance between the offence and the goal = 20 yards
  • general direction of the play = going towards goal
  • likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball = the ball is potentially going straight in the goal so not required
  • location and number of defenders = whilst 3 defenders, they are unlikely to get the ball if it is going in
The referee is having to make these considerations from the halfway line.

Most of all, in my opinion, the game expects a red card in this situation. As a referee, you shouldn't have to mitigate for the goalkeeper's stupidity.
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I'm not convinced.
 
The Ref Stop
Does bring me back to my earlier point. Many people claimed the game expects a red card- no one has been able to explain who or why the game expects a red card.

And the fact the panel will be made up generally of non-referees would suggest a red card isn't expected......
 
Runner Ref said:
Does bring me back to my earlier point. Many people claimed the game expects a red card- no one has been able to explain who or why the game expects a red card.

And the fact the panel will be made up generally of non-referees would suggest a red card isn't expected......
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It's all g;)ne a bit quiet!
 
The appeal being successful doesn't necessarily mean that the decision was incorrect. As has been covered before, the appeals panel is made up of 4 ex-players / managers and 1 member of PGMOL (not necessarily an ex-referee). They will have been given some grounding in law, but nowhere near the same level as the referee who's decisions they are ruling on.

I've said all along that the EPL and EFL should ban clubs appealing, just like most other leagues in the World do. FIFA don't actually allow it, and this is why the red card isn't actually repealed, it stays on record and only the suspension is removed, they are getting around it on a technicality.
 
RustyRef said:
The appeal being successful doesn't necessarily mean that the decision was incorrect. As has been covered before, the appeals panel is made up of 4 ex-players / managers and 1 member of PGMOL (not necessarily an ex-referee). They will have been given some grounding in law, but nowhere near the same level as the referee who's decisions they are ruling on.

I've said all along that the EPL and EFL should ban clubs appealing, just like most other leagues in the World do. FIFA don't actually allow it, and this is why the red card isn't actually repealed, it stays on record and only the suspension is removed, they are getting around it on a technicality.
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I completely agree with your first sentence. We had a debate about 6 months ago on here around a couple of appeals that were successful.

My point is, who defines what football expects? It's a phrase that is thrown around when people want to try and justify something, but maybe can't quite do it within law. The fact that non-refereeing people decided it was incorrect, does that mean football doesn't expect red? Or is football expects led by referees?
 
Watching the highlights, the attacking team scores on the following free kick, but wasn't there an attacker in/behind/within 1 yard of the defensive wall? Wouldn't that nullify the goal? Thanks
 
RustyRef said:
The appeal being successful doesn't necessarily mean that the decision was incorrect. As has been covered before, the appeals panel is made up of 4 ex-players / managers and 1 member of PGMOL (not necessarily an ex-referee). They will have been given some grounding in law, but nowhere near the same level as the referee who's decisions they are ruling on.

I've said all along that the EPL and EFL should ban clubs appealing, just like most other leagues in the World do. FIFA don't actually allow it, and this is why the red card isn't actually repealed, it stays on record and only the suspension is removed, they are getting around it on a technicality.
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Hangonaminute! So, you're saying that a reffing expert, ie the ref and the VAR team are being judged by non-reffing experts and potentially partisan people, the ex players and managers? Something isn't right here. An appeal should only be judged by top refs, end of story.
 
FinalWhistle said:
Hangonaminute! So, you're saying that a reffing expert, ie the ref and the VAR team are being judged by non-reffing experts and potentially partisan people, the ex players and managers? Something isn't right here. An appeal should only be judged by top refs, end of story.
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I think I was mixing up the independent KMD panel and an appeals panel, but the premise still stands. The appeals are usually heard by a panel of people where most have no refereeing experience.
 
Runner Ref said:
My point is, who defines what football expects? It's a phrase that is thrown around when people want to try and justify something, but maybe can't quite do it within law. The fact that non-refereeing people decided it was incorrect, does that mean football doesn't expect red? Or is football expects led by referees?
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I generally take that as don't make a decision that absolutely surprises everyone. For example, an attacker is clean through on goal and gets scythed down, as referees we are expected to consider the 4 criteria, but in that situation everyone expects a red card. Or where a referee has seen something that absolutely no one else has, and a red card would surprise everyone.
 
RustyRef said:
I generally take that as don't make a decision that absolutely surprises everyone. For example, an attacker is clean through on goal and gets scythed down, as referees we are expected to consider the 4 criteria, but in that situation everyone expects a red card. Or where a referee has seen something that absolutely no one else has, and a red card would surprise everyone.
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So your basis for what football expects doesn't really mean anything.

The first example you gave is either DOGSO or it isn't. You can't give red for something that isn't DOGSO because the bloke down the pub expects you to. Similarly if you see something off the ball no one else does, you shouldn't not be sending them off because it will be a surprise to everyone.

Its a phrase people use, but it means naff all. Multiple people used it in this thread alone, and the panel seemingly proved them wrong.
 
Kent Ref said:
Have you seen the written reasons for overturning the red card then?
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Of course not, I chose very poor wording there. I meant to say the technicalities they almost definitely will have used etc, because they would not have overturned it if it met the 4 criteria for DOGSO.
 
Why did the GK deliberately handle the ball, to Deny the opposition an Obvious Goal Scoring Opportunity?

Professional refereeing must be the only occupation, sent out to work, told to make decisions, scrutinised unfairly by a biased social media audience, then final piece not backed by your employer. BTW “go out next week, referee with confidence, make bold decisions” Repeat.

IMO, the appeal should only be upheld for a clear error in law or mistaken identity. Decisions like this are just opinions.
 
Gabriel said:
Of course not, I chose very poor wording there. I meant to say the technicalities they almost definitely will have used etc, because they would not have overturned it if it met the 4 criteria for DOGSO.
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It doesn't need to necessarily meet all 4. They are considerations, not criteria.
 
RefereeX said:
You’re correct in the first part of what you say, but this is a poor example, it’s a clear red card. Very strong possibility that the defenders header is going in if the keeper doesn’t handball it.
Kent ref, Gillingham game 🤔
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I'm a s/t holder but always query anything that looks unfair - even against my team.
 
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