A&H

Forest Vs Liverpool

marshr02 said:
Thanks for reply. Another example: Blues have ball it deflects off the ref to the Yellows, ref blows up and gives drop ball to Blues. i.e. the whistle comes after the decision to stop - the whistle isn't some absolute time/position of when play is stopped. So..... why are so few 'professional' people mentioning this... including Mark Clattenberg and Mike Dean in his interview.....
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Good try but no cigar this time ☺️

The laws define when the ball is out of play in this situation and it (when it has gone out of play) has nothing to do with the time of ref decision or the signal/whistle. The ball is out of play the moment the ball has touched the referee. The ref only decides if all the circumstances are met following the touch and signals to indicate they have.

Similar when the ball just goes over the sideline and comes back in. Ref decides it has gone over the line and usually blows to communicate it. No matter how late the ref decides or blows, the ball is out of play the moment it's over the line.
 
The Referee Store
We are on a to be continued thing... Law 9 does not mention the whistle.

Screenshot_20240304-113640.png
 
RefereeX said:
I think it's great that you can get such a quick response from them, however sometimes I do wonder if the people who respond are:
a) Deliberately vague / avoiding the question
b) Not referees and don't understand the question fully
c) Getting splinters in their back side
d) All of the above
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They used to be signed by David Elleray... Whether he still manages them now, I am not so sure.

I think they have made a fair response on this one. The issue being the clarification they are making does not appear in law anywhere, even more specifically the law they have suggested.

It's a very matter of fact response that is factually inaccurate.

Here's my reply for anyone interested:

Screenshot_20240304-115637.png
 
one said:
Good try but no cigar this time ☺️

The laws define when the ball is out of play in this situation and it (when it has gone out of play) has nothing to do with the time of ref decision or the signal/whistle. The ball is out of play the moment the ball has touched the referee. The ref only decides if all the circumstances are met following the touch and signals to indicate they have.

Similar when the ball just goes over the sideline and comes back in. Ref decides it has gone over the line and usually blows to communicate it. No matter how late the ref decides or blows, the ball is out of play the moment it's over the line.
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Thanks for clarification, makes sense.
 
I can see what they're edging towards, and I genuinely feel like that's the wrong side of the fence to come down on. What if the ref drops his whistle and has to stop to find it, or fumble in his pocket for a spare? In situations where the exact timing of play stopping matters, it makes far more sense for it to depend on the referee's decision rather than his signal.
 
JamesL said:
They used to be signed by David Elleray... Whether he still manages them now, I am not so sure.

I think they have made a fair response on this one. The issue being the clarification they are making does not appear in law anywhere, even more specifically the law they have suggested.

It's a very matter of fact response that is factually inaccurate.

Here's my reply for anyone interested:
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I categorised that particular reply under option b, not fully understanding. As you say they've mentioned the whistle when the law makes no reference to is, as if 'the refereeing stops the game' and the whistle being blown are the same thing, but law doesn't say what they say it does.

Interestingly, you've lead me to do some research in to IFAB.

For those that don't know, which I'm sure you do, James, each UK FA (England, Scotlands, Wales, NI) have one vote on any law change and FIFA have four. This means that the UK FA's can not change anything without FIFA's approval and FIFA can't without at least 2 of the UK assocation's approval.
 
JamesL said:
View attachment 7178
Make of it what you will...
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It seems that IFAB have made a distinction between the referee intending to stop play and actually stopping play. Of course there'll be a delay between the two but players need to be told to stop play otherwise they don't know that play is stopped. After all, the phrase "play to the whistle" is etched into football culture.
 
Mr Dean said:
It seems that IFAB have made a distinction between the referee intending to stop play and actually stopping play. Of course there'll be a delay between the two but players need to be told to stop play otherwise they don't know that play is stopped. After all, the phrase "play to the whistle" is etched into football culture.
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That really isn’t relevant to this question. Play is often dead before the whistle blows. If the ball has gone over a line, play is dead even without the whistle, for example. Play to the whistle is because that is when players know play is dead instead of assuming; it is not a comment on when p,ay actually became dead.
 
JamesL said:
They used to be signed by David Elleray... Whether he still manages them now, I am not so sure.

I think they have made a fair response on this one. The issue being the clarification they are making does not appear in law anywhere, even more specifically the law they have suggested.

It's a very matter of fact response that is factually inaccurate.

Here's my reply for anyone interested:

View attachment 7176
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I think when play is considered stopped should be defined in a wider view than just the dropped ball situation. For example what if the ball enters goal between the decision to stop play and signal.
 
Play is not stopped until the whistle is blown, we then go back to the offence/incident for the restart.

The whistle is needed to:

• stop play:

• for a free kick or penalty kick
• if the match is suspended or abandoned
• at the end of each half
• restart play for:
• free kicks when the appropriate distance is required
• penalty kicks


The whistle is NOT needed to:
• stop play for a clear:
• goal kick, corner kick, throw-in or goal
• restart play from:
• most free kicks, and a goal kick, corner kick, throw-in or dropped ball
is where the ball is
 
bester said:
Play is not stopped until the whistle is blown, we then go back to the offence/incident for the restart.

The whistle is needed to:

• stop play:

• for a free kick or penalty kick
• if the match is suspended or abandoned
• at the end of each half
• restart play for:
• free kicks when the appropriate distance is required
• penalty kicks


The whistle is NOT needed to:
• stop play for a clear:
• goal kick, corner kick, throw-in or goal
• restart play from:
• most free kicks, and a goal kick, corner kick, throw-in or dropped ball
is where the ball is
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The elephant in that list, is exactly the issue in the thread.

What about when a player is "seriously injured". Literally a milliseconds difference in time of the whistle being blown can completely change the dynamic of the restart...

The whistle is required to restart after injury, but not to stop for an injury? We all know in practise that BS, so that list should have something like to stop play for any other reason not listed.
 
bester said:
Play is not stopped until the whistle is blown, we then go back to the offence/incident for the restart.

The whistle is needed to:

• stop play:

• for a free kick or penalty kick
• if the match is suspended or abandoned
• at the end of each half
• restart play for:
• free kicks when the appropriate distance is required
• penalty kicks


The whistle is NOT needed to:
• stop play for a clear:
• goal kick, corner kick, throw-in or goal
• restart play from:
• most free kicks, and a goal kick, corner kick, throw-in or dropped ball
is where the ball is
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A player commits a careless challenge near sideline. After you decide to stop play but before you blow the whistle (ball still in play!) the ball goes over the sideline. What is the restart? Similar scenario has been discussed many times when a shot is taken in the PA and late foul tackle comes in just before/after the ball goes over the bar.

Can the referee stop play if play is already stopped?

There are other examples as well. When play is considered stopped needs clarity despite what the IFAB rep thinks.
 
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one said:
A player commits a careless challenge near sideline. After you decide to stop play but before you blow the whistle (ball still in play!) the ball goes over the sideline. What is the restart? Similar scenario has been discussed many times when a shot is taken in the PA and late foul tackle comes in just before/after the ball goes over the bar.

Can the referee stop play if play is already stopped?

There are other examples as well. When play is considered stopped needs clarity despite what the IFAB rep thinks.
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Perhaps we all need to email so they can see that it isn't as clear as they reckon?
 
GraemeS said:
I can see what they're edging towards, and I genuinely feel like that's the wrong side of the fence to come down on. What if the ref drops his whistle and has to stop to find it, or fumble in his pocket for a spare? In situations where the exact timing of play stopping matters, it makes far more sense for it to depend on the referee's decision rather than his signal.
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That's a good point.
 
Sky have just broken it down on Monday Night Football, very clearly shows Graham Scott (4th official) pointing and walking down the touchline and saying the ball should be given back to Forest. Once Paul Tierney then drops it to the keeper he shrugs to the Forest technical area as if to say "I tried to tell him". It doesn't look good, and certainly doesn't back the previous suggestions that his colleagues should have helped him out, as it looks very much like at least one of them tried his best to. Of course it could be that Tierney has said over comms that he'd already decided to stop play before the Forest player touches the ball, but it doesn't look like that.
 
RustyRef said:
Sky have just broken it down on Monday Night Football, very clearly shows Graham Scott (4th official) pointing and walking down the touchline and saying the ball should be given back to Forest. Once Paul Tierney then drops it to the keeper he shrugs to the Forest technical area as if to say "I tried to tell him". It doesn't look good, and certainly doesn't back the previous suggestions that his colleagues should have helped him out, as it looks very much like at least one of them tried his best to. Of course it could be that Tierney has said over comms that he'd already decided to stop play before the Forest player touches the ball, but it doesn't look like that.
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TBF to Scott, he's probably thinking (when shrugging, 'tried to tell him'), 'what's the chances of Liverpool scoring a winner in the last few seconds' haha
It's quite normal to slip up by ingratiating yourself with the TA's, only for the Football Gods to bite you on the backside for doing so
 
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