Forest Vs Liverpool

[Mooseybaby]

Sky Sports link of the incident...

 

[DJIC]

Saw another tweet with better sound quality ..

Whistle goes (11 seconds in) BEFORE the ball leaves the area.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1764034543869157603

The evidence suggests the sound has been manipulated on this Tweet. Both MoD & SkySports links are both consistent showing when the whistle was blown, with the players reaction, & crowd groans with the ball outside the area at the Forrest player’s feet.

This is poor from PT, an error I wouldn’t expect at grass roots but with 4 officials with Comms certainly should not be made, whilst not welcome PT has created his own problems here.

 

[RustyRef]

The evidence suggests the sound has been manipulated on this Tweet. Both MoD & SkySports links are both consistent showing when the whistle was blown, with the players reaction, & crowd groans with the ball outside the area at the Forrest player’s feet.

This is poor from PT, an error I wouldn’t expect at grass roots but with 4 officials with Comms certainly should not be made, whilst not welcome PT has created his own problems here.

Yeah, it is very clear that the whistle goes nowhere near his mouth until the ball is with the Forest player.

 

[Trip]

Saw another tweet with better sound quality ..

Whistle goes (11 seconds in) BEFORE the ball leaves the area.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1764034543869157603

This must be faked. Here's the incident on Sky website:

Referee error before Liverpool's winner at Nottingham Forest causes controversy as Mark Clattenburg speaks out

Nottingham Forests 1-0 defeat to Liverpool on Saturday ended in chaos and controversy over referee Paul Tierneys decision not to return the ball to Forest following a head injury; Mark Clattenburg, the clubs referee analyst, unclear if club will officially complain to the PGMOL

www.skysports.com

 

[GraemeS]

This must be faked. Here's the incident on Sky website:

Referee error before Liverpool's winner at Nottingham Forest causes controversy as Mark Clattenburg speaks out

Nottingham Forests 1-0 defeat to Liverpool on Saturday ended in chaos and controversy over referee Paul Tierneys decision not to return the ball to Forest following a head injury; Mark Clattenburg, the clubs referee analyst, unclear if club will officially complain to the PGMOL

www.skysports.com

The footage goes to Slow-mo and the audio doesn't pitch shift like it would if it was also slowed down. So I think it's quite clearly been done to make the decision look more legit.

Which is entirly unnecessary of course, as noted before, it's pretty borderline if the touch was before the whistle regardless. And once you consider the ref likely considered the play dead a couple of seconds earlier - there's an argument it should have been dropped to a defender in the corner, but that's a negligible difference.

 

[Kevin0954]

Yeah, it is very clear that the whistle goes nowhere near his mouth until the ball is with the Forest player.

DJIC said:
'The evidence suggests the sound has been manipulated on this Tweet. Both MoD & SkySports links are both consistent showing when the whistle was blown, with the players reaction, & crowd groans with the ball outside the area at the Forrest player’s feet.
This is poor from PT, an error I wouldn’t expect at grass roots but with 4 officials with Comms certainly should not be made, whilst not welcome PT has created his own problems here.'

Too much speculation around this regarding 'what could / would have happened if?'
Issue is factual - an incorrect restart. Sky Sports and other clips clearly show whistle blown with ball in possession if Forrest player and outside the PA.
As DJIC said there's a team of four out there and this would be frowned upon at grass roots.

 

[Mr Dean]

The drop ball to the keeper is IMHO the easiest and least contentious choice (unless you're a Forest fan). Whilst correct in law, imagine Tierney dropping the ball to a Forest player 20 yards out from goal in the 90+ minute for them to score. Klopp would have a seizure

Not to mention Tierney would've been out of position for the restart and would need to quickly get out of the way while concentrating on play. I can't recall a time when a referee has dropped a ball to a team near to the opponent's penalty area; it looks to be something elite refs avoid.

 

[santa sangria]

DJIC said:
'The evidence suggests the sound has been manipulated on this Tweet. Both MoD & SkySports links are both consistent showing when the whistle was blown, with the players reaction, & crowd groans with the ball outside the area at the Forrest player’s feet.
This is poor from PT, an error I wouldn’t expect at grass roots but with 4 officials with Comms certainly should not be made, whilst not welcome PT has created his own problems here.'

Too much speculation around this regarding 'what could / would have happened if?'
Issue is factual - an incorrect restart. Sky Sports and other clips clearly show whistle blown with ball in possession if Forrest player and outside the PA.
As DJIC said there's a team of four out there and this would be frowned upon at grass roots.

When is play stopped?

 

[RustyRef]

The drop ball to the keeper is IMHO the easiest and least contentious choice (unless you're a Forest fan). Whilst correct in law, imagine Tierney dropping the ball to a Forest player 20 yards out from goal in the 90+ minute for them to score. Klopp would have a seizure.

I suspect Paul Tierney is thinking otherwise

Pretty sure he'd be getting less stick now than he would if he'd dropped the ball to Forest and they had crossed and scored. And any grief he got could be swatted away as he would have been 100% correct and backed by law. I've noticed when they drop the ball in attacking positions they usually put their body between the ball and the goal, so the player it is dropped to can't whip it straight in. Plus opponents only need to be 4m away so they can very quickly close him down after it is dropped.

 

[marshr02]

There’s also a video of a fan getting onto the FOP and running at Tierney after the Liverpool goal, only for the Liverpool players to stop him. Week by week, the respect for referees is dropping, not improving. Humans making mistakes is not an excuse for all this

Newish referee here. Asking you as L4. My understanding is the referee stops the game, and then some time later blows his whistle. i.e. the whistle isn't an indication of where the referee decided to stop play. So in this example the ref may have decided to stop play while still in the box, and by the time the whistle was blown if was with Forest on the wing. Genuinely curious to learn. (Non-supporter, so neutral

 

[marshr02]

I think there is non clarity on when the game is considered stopped. Many believe when the whistle is blown. Most referees believe it's stopped when the referee decides it is stopped or decides he is stopping the game. The whistle comes moments after the decision to signal it. In this instance the time gap between forest touching and the whistle is about half a second. I think Tierney's has already decided he is stopping the game before the ball is touched outside the PA, and he has also decided where the ball is being dropped. This makes the touch outside the PA irrelevant even if he had seen it.

So for me, this is not a mistake provided his explanation is as above.

Thank you for articulating my thoughts

 

[DJIC]

I’m no expert but what about a shot on goal, can a referee say I had already stopped the game despite the whistle after the ball hit the net?

Ball out of play, foul would be different.

 

[bloovee]

Just watched the incident on MOTD, the whistle isn't blown until the ball gets to the Forest player, he does touch the ball before the whistle. However, Tierney's attention is probably on the 'injured' player, not who touches the ball last.

The drop ball to the keeper is IMHO the easiest and least contentious choice (unless you're a Forest fan). Whilst correct in law, imagine Tierney dropping the ball to a Forest player 20 yards out from goal in the 90+ minute for them to score. Klopp would have a seizure.

There is considerable time between the drop ball and the goal going in, this included Forest trying to dribble the ball out of their own box twice instead of clearing their lines and securing the draw.

If anything, there should be more focus put on Konate for simulation as he goes down holding his head under very minimal contact, Tierney has no choice but to stop the game, however, he could've 'sold' his decision better by waving on the physio for a head injury (IMHO) and having Konate taken off the pitch.

"Least contentious"? Obviously not!

As for "imagine Tierney dropping the ball to a Forest player 20 yards out from goal in the 90+ minute for them to score. Klopp would have a seizure", that really would not be helping his case if that had been why he did it, rather than just dropping a clanger!

 

[ladbroke8745]

Newish referee here. Asking you as L4. My understanding is the referee stops the game, and then some time later blows his whistle. i.e. the whistle isn't an indication of where the referee decided to stop play. So in this example the ref may have decided to stop play while still in the box, and by the time the whistle was blown if was with Forest on the wing. Genuinely curious to learn. (Non-supporter, so neutral

You could argue the same in the Real Madrid game last night.
They scored after the referees whistle. He blew as the ball was mid cross. He probably had it in mind to blow before cross but by the time whistle goes to mouth and he blows it's been crossed and subsequently scored.

 

[marshr02]

You could argue the same in the Real Madrid game last night.
They scored after the referees whistle. He blew as the ball was mid cross. He probably had it in mind to blow before cross but by the time whistle goes to mouth and he blows it's been crossed and subsequently scored

Thanks for reply. Another example: Blues have ball it deflects off the ref to the Yellows, ref blows up and gives drop ball to Blues. i.e. the whistle comes after the decision to stop - the whistle isn't some absolute time/position of when play is stopped. So..... why are so few 'professional' people mentioning this... including Mark Clattenberg and Mike Dean in his interview.....

 

[bloovee]

Thanks for reply. Another example: Blues have ball it deflects off the ref to the Yellows, ref blows up and gives drop ball to Blues. i.e. the whistle comes after the decision to stop - the whistle isn't some absolute time/position of when play is stopped. So..... why are so few 'professional' people mentioning this... including Mark Clattenberg and Mike Dean in his interview.....

Perhaps because the circumstances are different. The decision to stop play after a foul or after ball hits referee needs a reaction time to blow the whistle. The decision to stop play for a head injury is entirely in the referee's control and, given the law on the restart, he needs to see what the situation is when he stops play. Distinguishing between a decision to stop play and blowing the whistle is just inviting trouble.

I don't think it was a feigned injury but if a defence under pressure can feign injury and get the ball back when they shouldn't, that is an outcome to be avoided.

 

[JamesL]

I think there is non clarity on when the game is considered stopped. Many believe when the whistle is blown. Most referees believe it's stopped when the referee decides it is stopped or decides he is stopping the game. The whistle comes moments after the decision to signal it. In this instance the time gap between forest touching and the whistle is about half a second. I think Tierney's has already decided he is stopping the game before the ball is touched outside the PA, and he has also decided where the ball is being dropped. This makes the touch outside the PA irrelevant even if he had seen it.

So for me, this is not a mistake provided his explanation is as above.

As the unofficial RefChat spokesman I have posed the question!

 

[JBeil]

I wonder if this is PGMOL guidance rather than LotG? As a previous commentator stated, there's no way you'd be in position if dropped and then the ball went straight into play, so perhaps the guidance from Webb has been to contrive to drop it in the box for the keeper to give officials time to get in place?

 

[one]

As the unofficial RefChat spokesman I have posed the question!

It will be interesting to see IFAB spoke person's opinion as well. And hopefully it's something that makes sense.

Careful and deliberate choice of words from me above. Whatever the response, it would be an opinion until it's in an official circular or lotg. We have seen responses in the past which are changed later or even in direct contradiction with law.

 

[JamesL]

It will be interesting to see IFAB spoke person's opinion as well. And hopefully it's something that makes sense.

Careful and deliberate choice of words from me above. Whatever the response, it would be an opinion until it's in an official circular or lotg. We have seen responses in the past which are changed later or even in direct contradiction with law.

I suspect I won't get an answer on this one actually.
Probably too soon after the event, although I haven't mentioned the game, you have to live under a rock to not know where the question has come from.