Finding fame

[PinnerPaul]

With all due respect SS66 I think you are missing the point.

Refs/ARs work the way they do for 3 main reasons

1) Match Control
2) Credibility
3) Practicality

We've discussed on here frequently that when working as an AR in front of spectators, even at a 'low' level, you will often hear someone say after the ref has given a foul, "You saw that lino, you've got to help him out"

Sooooo thinking about it, how would that work in practice?, a conversation about every decision the AR doesn't agree with? - think about how that fits in with my 3 reasons above and you can see it is nothing to do with levels, seniority or egos, but just the best way for 3 officials to work together.

 

[Big Cat]

It means that the situation described sounded to me like arrogance and my experience is that I found referees who were on this hierarchial pathway quite arrogant in general. I admit that maybe I havent met the better or more typical referee who may be very willing to offer advice to others but this is just my experience. I found it somewhat similar in the coaching pathways too. Coaches attached to football clubs again tended to be more aloof and less sharing towards recreational coaches who just wanted to expand their knowledge to pass their knowledge on to their players. Like I say,I can only comment on personal experience and my experiences may be untypical.

I understand why you or any 'man on the street' might consider the comment as arrogant. Honestly I do... and it's refreshing to see your post challenging the odd mentality of us referees. You're quite right in terms of common sense etc.
However, due to the dynamics and culture of the game, there's a big risk of an Assistant causing the Referee problems if assistance is offered when the Referee doesn't want or expect it. It's just that it takes a lot of experience to know when to come to the Referee's rescue and when not to. Honestly, common sense assisting has the potential to make the Referee's predicament a lot worse. So I'd only want you telling me I've got a PK decision wrong if it's absolutely black and white and if i've covered it in pre-match instructions or if I approach you for help. Otherwise, you'd need to be really quite experienced on the line to have a realistic chance of actually reversing a bad situation for the Ref
That's just how stupid the game is!

 

[SpecsSaver66]

I understand why you or any 'man on the street' might consider the comment as arrogant. Honestly I do... and it's refreshing to see your post challenging the odd mentality of us referees. You're quite right in terms of common sense etc.
However, due to the dynamics and culture of the game, there's a big risk of an Assistant causing the Referee problems if assistance is offered when the Referee doesn't want or expect it. It's just that it takes a lot of experience to know when to come to the Referee's rescue and when not to. Honestly, common sense assisting has the potential to make the Referee's predicament a lot worse. So I'd only want you telling me I've got a PK decision wrong if it's absolutely black and white and if i've covered it in pre-match instructions or if I approach you for help. Otherwise, you'd need to be really quite experienced on the line to have a realistic chance of actually reversing a bad situation for the Ref
That's just how stupid the game is!

Fair enough. Sometimes in text it can come over different than in the true context of what you are saying. I tend to disagree that a quick consultation with the AR would undermine the ref,I believe the opposite actually,but you have answered my questions honestly so credit to you for that and its fine to disagree.
The comparison with a 78 year old official brings back memories of an old fella who reffed around my area for many,many years and who was a terrible ref but was tolerated due to his age and reliability.

 

[Justylove]

You say 'I don't want a Level 7 interfering.' This sounds extremely arrogant IMHO, as refereeing or running a line is hardly rocket science.

Consider the flip side of this.

I turn up to my supply league game and meet a L7 referee for the first time. I don't know them at all and have no idea as to how good they actually are - contrary to your point above, running the line might not be rocket science, but it's certainly not easy.

I'm ranked on a merit table for both observers and clubs and the bandings are tight. One really contentious decision can shoot my match control to pieces and potentially kill not just the game for me, but also my season (if I'm near the top, or at the bottom).

From a selfish perspective, I've earned the right to be in the middle and referee those games and I do not want to be unnecessarily passing control of MY destiny to someone that I don't know from Adam.

That's why I want my assistants to only come in on KMD's when I invite them to. Worst case is that I've got a good view of a penalty shout and am waving it away and my assistant comes in with a flag because in their opinion it was a foul. If I don't feel like I've got a position to make a credible decision and my AR is better placed, that's when I'm looking for them to come in with a decision, and having made the decision, I'll back them 100%.

 

[SpecsSaver66]

Consider the flip side of this.

I turn up to my supply league game and meet a L7 referee for the first time. I don't know them at all and have no idea as to how good they actually are - contrary to your point above, running the line might not be rocket science, but it's certainly not easy.

I'm ranked on a merit table for both observers and clubs and the bandings are tight. One really contentious decision can shoot my match control to pieces and potentially kill not just the game for me, but also my season (if I'm near the top, or at the bottom).

From a selfish perspective, I've earned the right to be in the middle and referee those games and I do not want to be unnecessarily passing control of MY destiny to someone that I don't know from Adam.

That's why I want my assistants to only come in on KMD's when I invite them to. Worst case is that I've got a good view of a penalty shout and am waving it away and my assistant comes in with a flag because in their opinion it was a foul. If I don't feel like I've got a position to make a credible decision and my AR is better placed, that's when I'm looking for them to come in with a decision, and having made the decision, I'll back them 100%.

All I'm saying is that IF that assistant is signalling you and the players can see he is trying to communicate something to you then a quick approach and a 10 second 'I am happy with my decision' or some such acknowledgement then at least lets everybody know you are working together. I would be very happy to at least listen to an AR. I remember doing the line myself in a cup final and the ball crossed the line for a goal but the ref didnt see it and took ages to acknowledge me and finally give the goal. I was 100% right as an AR and would have flagged for the next 10 minutes if necessary. If I was the AR in the scenario we are speaking about and my input was completely ignored I would be very displeased and it would really make me question why I was there.

 

[RustyRef]

All I'm saying is that IF that assistant is signalling you and the players can see he is trying to communicate something to you then a quick approach and a 10 second 'I am happy with my decision' or some such acknowledgement then at least lets everybody know you are working together. I would be very happy to at least listen to an AR. I remember doing the line myself in a cup final and the ball crossed the line for a goal but the ref didnt see it and took ages to acknowledge me and finally give the goal. I was 100% right as an AR and would have flagged for the next 10 minutes if necessary. If I was the AR in the scenario we are speaking about and my input was completely ignored I would be very displeased and it would really make me question why I was there.

It is down to credibility though. If the referee is much closer to the incident and does or doesn't make a decision, is it really credible for an assistant to come in with his view on it from two or three times the distance away? No it isn't, certainly not without comms as it would have to be a very visible or audible decision to get involved, and it would risk completely undermining the referee. This is why it pretty standard for the referee to cover in pre-match instructions when the assistant should or shouldn't come in. Remember that assistants are there to assist, not insist, and undermining the referee with involvement that he simply doesn't need isn't really assisting him, it is quite possibly hampering him. I've seen it loads when observing and it doesn't usually end well.

 

[Justylove]

All I'm saying is that IF that assistant is signalling you and the players can see he is trying to communicate something to you then a quick approach and a 10 second 'I am happy with my decision' or some such acknowledgement then at least lets everybody know you are working together. I would be very happy to at least listen to an AR. I remember doing the line myself in a cup final and the ball crossed the line for a goal but the ref didnt see it and took ages to acknowledge me and finally give the goal. I was 100% right as an AR and would have flagged for the next 10 minutes if necessary. If I was the AR in the scenario we are speaking about and my input was completely ignored I would be very displeased and it would really make me question why I was there.

That depends what they are signalling for.

For a goal line decision I'm expecting my AR to flag to tell me the ball has crossed the line IF they are in a credible position (I.e. on or close to the line in question). I'm less inclined to take their input if they are trying to sell it to me from the 18 yard line however!

On the quick 10 second discussion - I'll give you a real life example of what happened to me in one of my first games as an L4. Play was in the left hand corner of the FOP (so far side from the active AR). Two players challenge for it and I give a corner, cue a bit of grumbling from the defender, but I'm certain I'm right.

Next thing I'm getting buzzed by my non active AR (same side of the pitch but on the halfway line). He's benchside and buzzing like crazy so I'm thinking we've got serious misconduct on the benches so head over. I get over there and he says 'I think you got the corner decision wrong, I thought it was a goal kick from here!' I won't share my response, but as a referee I don't want my AR flagging for stuff from a non credible position (as in this case).

 

[SpecsSaver66]

That depends what they are signalling for.

For a goal line decision I'm expecting my AR to flag to tell me the ball has crossed the line IF they are in a credible position (I.e. on or close to the line in question). I'm less inclined to take their input if they are trying to sell it to me from the 18 yard line however!

On the quick 10 second discussion - I'll give you a real life example of what happened to me in one of my first games as an L4. Play was in the left hand corner of the FOP (so far side from the active AR). Two players challenge for it and I give a corner, cue a bit of grumbling from the defender, but I'm certain I'm right.

Next thing I'm getting buzzed by my non active AR (same side of the pitch but on the halfway line). He's benchside and buzzing like crazy so I'm thinking we've got serious misconduct on the benches so head over. I get over there and he says 'I think you got the corner decision wrong, I thought it was a goal kick from here!' I won't share my response, but as a referee I don't want my AR flagging for stuff from a non credible position (as in this case).

That is a reasonable call. The example we are speaking about originally seems to indicate the AR was in a fair position to have a good view. Apologies if I've misunderstood the ARs actual position in the original example.

 

[Big Cat]

Fair enough. Sometimes in text it can come over different than in the true context of what you are saying. I tend to disagree that a quick consultation with the AR would undermine the ref,I believe the opposite actually,but you have answered my questions honestly so credit to you for that and its fine to disagree.
The comparison with a 78 year old official brings back memories of an old fella who reffed around my area for many,many years and who was a terrible ref but was tolerated due to his age and reliability.

The fact that we're having this conversation illustrates just how daft the game is. Instead of being ably assisted by colleagues in physical attendance, we have to use someone in a shipping container hundreds of miles away instead. Ironically, although this flurry of discussion was triggered by a translation of arrogance from me, I'm paradoxically the one who will side with you in the debate
It's a complex issue, but the culture in the game prevents us from working together effectively as one might ordinarily expect
Trust me, once the players sense weakness in a Referee, it's gonna be a long afternoon. Alas, mere interaction between R and AR is likely to trigger this off, especially as it may exhibit doubt in a R when it comes to Key Match Decisions. Thereafter, the hyenas will take over and insist that the AR consulted on everything, so teamwork is extremely curtailed to specific agreed scenarios and methods of working

 

[SpecsSaver66]

The fact that we're having this conversation illustrates just how daft the game is. Instead of being ably assisted by colleagues in physical attendance, we have to use someone in a shipping container hundreds of miles away instead. Ironically, although this flurry of discussion was triggered by a translation of arrogance from me, I'm paradoxically the one who will side with you in the debate
It's a complex issue, but the culture in the game prevents us from working together effectively as one might ordinarily expect
Trust me, once the players sense weakness in a Referee, it's gonna be a long afternoon. Alas, mere interaction between R and AR is likely to trigger this off, especially as it may exhibit doubt in a R when it comes to Key Match Decisions. Thereafter, the hyenas will take over and insist that the AR consulted on everything, so teamwork is extremely curtailed to specific agreed scenarios and methods of working

I am sensing a dislike of VAR and I am 100% alongside you on that,on every level of football I participate in,fan,referee,coach etc.

 

[RustyRef]

Trust me, once the players sense weakness in a Referee, it's gonna be a long afternoon. Alas, mere interaction between R and AR is likely to trigger this off, especially as it may exhibit doubt in a R when it comes to Key Match Decisions. Thereafter, the hyenas will take over and insist that the AR consulted on everything, so teamwork is extremely curtailed to specific agreed scenarios and methods of working

And that is why players scream "go and talk to your lino" when you make a decision they don't like. They are just trying to undermine you and get under your skin.

I don't agree though that teamwork is necessarily curtailed, rather it is effective. There are lots of discrete signals than can be used and are used, but a "busy" assistant is 100% more of a hindrance than a help.

 

[Big Cat]

I am sensing a dislike of VAR and I am 100% alongside you on that,on every level of football I participate in,fan,referee,coach etc.

VAR is derided by the vast majority of people in the game (except by many Referees seemingly), but no point deviating onto that subject
BTW, my reference to L7 was purely a statistical likelihood of inexperience. Indeed, there a countless L7's out there who are far superior to countless L5's, but you get what I mean
I've seen many PKs awarded from the line that've been mistakes and I dare say AR's have seen me fall foul of the same inevitability. But there's feck all that can be done about this predicament without making matters a whole lot worse. The term 'credibility' is banded about excessively during every pre-match. What it really means, is that we're extremely limited on how the team interacts... and yes that means using preposterous covert hand gestures as @RustyRef mentions. ONLY one Referee can ultimately make a decision, so that restricts the AR's sphere of influence to 10 or 20 yards even if it's obvious the R is bleeding to death following an incorrect decision outside that zone of 'credibility'. Indecision or conflict within the Refereeing Team is usually fatal even if it might lead to the correct decision

Just one of many reasons why the standard of Refereeing across the board is so poor. It's not usually down to the individual Referees, more so the collective way in which officiating has evolved in the face of unmanageable behaviour

 

[JamesL]

As per law 5, referees decision are made in the opinion of the referee.
Whilst sometimes the assistant might be the best placed match official to help assist with a decision this is not when it's a subjective opinion of the referee and I wont be having 10 second chats every time an assistant wants to disagree with my opinion.

Matter of fact is different, and would gladly accept a bail out, but when it comes to opinion we can talk about that afterwards.

 

[Big Cat]

As per law 5, referees decision are made in the opinion of the referee.
Whilst sometimes the assistant might be the best placed match official to help assist with a decision this is not when it's a subjective opinion of the referee and I wont be having 10 second chats every time an assistant wants to disagree with my opinion.

Matter of fact is different, and would gladly accept a bail out, but when it comes to opinion we can talk about that afterwards.

There aren't many 'matter of fact' decisions in footy tho. Therefore its a team of one almost all of the time for KMDs such as PKs
Don't get me wrong.. I quite enjoy the impossibility of the job we do... but it doesn't amount to effective teamwork in the general sense. Imagine a copilot frozen out from saying anything so as not to upset the stewardess as the pilot in command inadvertantly turns the wrong engine off mid flight. That's how it used to be, until they discovered teamwork (or c0ckpit resource management). Preclusion from speaking up is never a good in any normal environment. I think flying a plane would be easier than reffing footy me sen

 

[Justylove]

There aren't many 'matter of fact' decisions in footy tho. Therefore its a team of one almost all of the time for KMDs such as PKs
Don't get me wrong.. I quite enjoy the impossibility of the job we do... but it doesn't amount to effective teamwork in the general sense. Imagine a copilot frozen out from saying anything so as not to upset the stewardess as the pilot in command inadvertantly turns the wrong engine off mid flight

The major 'matter of fact' decisions are big ones though - ball over the goal line is the obvious one, offsides being the other major one, both of which are potential KMD's.

The issue with things like a penalty award (or not) is that fouls are often quite subjective. How many times have you heard the phrase 'Seen them given' for a penalty shout? We can look at the same incident and you think it's a penalty and I don't, that's ok, until you are on my line and start waving your flag and giving me a penalty I've not asked for because you've backed me into a corner, leaving me with either the option of going with you (against my instincts which I back) or undermining by overruling you.

I've been around long enough to know when I've not got the most credible position to make a decision and my AR is going to be better placed than I am to give it. Trust goes both ways, my AR's need to know that I'll bring them in when I need them and when I do, I'll back them 100% on the decision they give me.

 

[Big Cat]

The major 'matter of fact' decisions are big ones though - ball over the goal line is the obvious one, offsides being the other major one, both of which are potential KMD's.

The issue with things like a penalty award (or not) is that fouls are often quite subjective. How many times have you heard the phrase 'Seen them given' for a penalty shout? We can look at the same incident and you think it's a penalty and I don't, that's ok, until you are on my line and start waving your flag and giving me a penalty I've not asked for because you've backed me into a corner, leaving me with either the option of going with you (against my instincts which I back) or undermining by overruling you.

I've been around long enough to know when I've not got the most credible position to make a decision and my AR is going to be better placed than I am to give it. Trust goes both ways, my AR's need to know that I'll bring them in when I need them and when I do, I'll back them 100% on the decision they give me.

Agreed. I know how it works
Just saying... the overall standard of officiating is poor (worse than ever at the top level imo) so I take an interest in the dynamics of why that is so

Anyone who makes it to the higher echolons of refereeing is an elite individual. But that's not enough tho
I just act to provoke discussion. I'm not one for just accepting the status quo. I challenge the modus operandi when things aren't right

 

[SpecsSaver66]

The major 'matter of fact' decisions are big ones though - ball over the goal line is the obvious one, offsides being the other major one, both of which are potential KMD's.

The issue with things like a penalty award (or not) is that fouls are often quite subjective. How many times have you heard the phrase 'Seen them given' for a penalty shout? We can look at the same incident and you think it's a penalty and I don't, that's ok, until you are on my line and start waving your flag and giving me a penalty I've not asked for because you've backed me into a corner, leaving me with either the option of going with you (against my instincts which I back) or undermining by overruling you.

I've been around long enough to know when I've not got the most credible position to make a decision and my AR is going to be better placed than I am to give it. Trust goes both ways, my AR's need to know that I'll bring them in when I need them and when I do, I'll back them 100% on the decision they give me.

I remember running a line in a junior cup final and the referee,similar to what has been mentioned here,had a signal for the ARs to use if they thought a penalty had occurred but it was not visible to the players. I think it was something like the flag behind your back pointing down towards the ground. I only remembered this due to the mention of 'signals' between officials. The pros of this are that a ref can give a penalty without a clear view but the cons are that a certain amount of trust in the ARs is necessary. This is probably why I mentioned a '10 second conversation' earlier as it could confirm or deny any such incidents quickly.

 

[JamesL]

There aren't many 'matter of fact' decisions in footy tho. Therefore its a team of one almost all of the time for KMDs such as PKs

Exactly.

Its rare that an AR is in a better position to be calling, nevermind trying to over rule a KMD decision like a penalty. And they should wait to be invited to do so. This isn't an arrogant point of view because I accept that when I act as an AR and follow the same principles I hope to receive when being assisted.

I'd relax that a little if we worked in specific teams (like EFL do in triangles 3 refs/6 ARs) and I got to know. And trust the ARs over a period knowing that our styles and tolerances have been aligned over working together for some time.

It's not meant as disrespect, there are tonnes of top, top assistants, and when I know they are I might perhaps relax what I do and don't want support with. But, to follow justy's earlier point: if my season is going to crash and burn on a decision, it better be one I have made.

 

[Justylove]

I remember running a line in a junior cup final and the referee,similar to what has been mentioned here,had a signal for the ARs to use if they thought a penalty had occurred but it was not visible to the players. I think it was something like the flag behind your back pointing down towards the ground. I only remembered this due to the mention of 'signals' between officials. The pros of this are that a ref can give a penalty without a clear view but the cons are that a certain amount of trust in the ARs is necessary. This is probably why I mentioned a '10 second conversation' earlier as it could confirm or deny any such incidents quickly.

The problem with 'the 10 second conversation' without Comms is that you have to physically go over to the AR and speak with them, that can absolutely kill your match control. You potentially look weak and unsure and then it sets the tone for the remainder of the game 'Are you sure ref? Why don't you go and speak to your lino?' or 'you spoke to your lino on the last one, why not now?'

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you never do it, but it's always going to be when I feel I need to, not when my assistant thinks I should.

 

[Max2]

For what it's worth, @Justylove is the best ref I've had the pleasure of waving a flag for <3